Kill raise dead... dead!

Gort

Explorer
When has it not been? A DM is free to allow or disallow any elements he/she wants. I'll use Vryloka and Revenants at times as a re-animate/re-incarnate or I may even pull out the 1E reincarnate table if it makes fun sense.

As I've already said, there is a big difference between "The game is designed so that characters can die at basically any time and therefore has raise dead in it so that the character isn't destroyed permanently" and "The game is designed so that characters normally cannot die unless the DM decides to go after them specifically with a coup-de-grace or similar, and therefore raise dead is not assumed to be a commonly-used tool of parties".

If the game assumes you can just resurrect anyone killed by save-or-die spells, you can't just remove the raise dead spell - you have to redesign all those save-or-die spells as well!

I want the default to be that raise dead is not required. It just seems... cheap that the only obstacle to avoiding death is knowing the right person and paying them the right money.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Gort

Explorer
Completely disagree with the OP. This is the type of rule that shouldn't be a hard rule either way. And I say this as someone who has NEVER used raise dead in my games - but it doesn't hurt my game to have it be an option in other games. I think D&D 5e will be the type of game that has less absolutes and more flexibility. It should work for everyone.

The trouble with your stance is that the game has to be designed in one way or another. Either the game is designed to be commonly lethal and therefore requires the raise dead spell to be easily available, or it isn't.

I would prefer it to not be a default assumption that raise dead is a common tool for adventurers, and that death is avoidable enough that it isn't necessary for it to be a common tool.
 

Ainamacar

Adventurer
The trouble with your stance is that the game has to be designed in one way or another. Either the game is designed to be commonly lethal and therefore requires the raise dead spell to be easily available, or it isn't.

Really? Most, but not all, aspects of a game break down "gracefully" under small rules changes. If this weren't the case designing the game in the first place would be nigh impossible. It's not that difficult to demonstrate in this particular instance, either. What if 4e had included a paragraph like this in the Death and Dying section:

"Some DMs may prefer more or less deadly combat than presented above. For more deadly combat, you die after failing only 1 death saving throw, or when you take damage reducing your current hit points to half your healing surge value expressed as a negative number. For less deadly combat, you die after failing 5 death saving throws, or if you take damage reducing your current hit points to your normal maximum hit points expressed as a negative number."

There isn't even a need to rewrite Raise Dead in 4e: "Some magical effects trap the soul and thus prevent Raise Dead from working, and the gods can intervene to prevent a soul from journeying back to the realm of the living." This is written carte blanche, in the ritual itself, for a DM to say Raise Dead doesn't work because the gods don't let it. But they could have just as easily written in the DMG "Some DMs may prefer that Raise Dead and similar magic not be present in their campaign. If so, make sure to inform your players before starting a campaign."

Nothing else about the game needed to change, and suddenly 4e is more or less deadly than "default". You would be correct if changing these two bits caused unintended cascading changes in the rules, or required them so the game would function, but they simply don't.

Even in 3.5, where the presence of save-or-die makes things much swingier, simple rules can mitigate the effect without destroying the entire edifice of the game.

I would prefer it to not be a default assumption that raise dead is a common tool for adventurers, and that death is avoidable enough that it isn't necessary for it to be a common tool.
I prefer that the game be playable for as many styles and preferences as possible. When those preferences differ enough, options are highly desirable. But If I have to choose a default for the game (and I do believe robust defaults are important) it is the one where entire campaigns don't unexpectedly crash and burn because a single ritual or spell doesn't exist.

If I have to choose a default for my games, it is one where raise dead is rare. Whether it is my own houserule or an "official" option, every single player will know it going in, and that will be one small part of many that informs how they can understand and interact with the world they'll be playing in.

For example, in my last 3.5 game each character started with a randomly rolled number of "soul points". I think it was 1d4-1. The players knew the odds, but not the result. A PC needed to spend 1 soul point to be raised, so on average the PCs had either 2.5 or 1.5 raises available. But they might have 0. This mix of hope and apprehension was sufficient for their caution, but did mean most could get past at least one screw-up. At one point the characters in that campaign entered a city that sucked interesting and unique knowledge from creatures entering or exiting it, sometimes killing those who did not possess sufficient knowledge. One character elected to stay behind when the rest of the party left, having been killed on the way in. He eventually enlisted aid from NPCs in this city (many of whom were similarly reluctant to leave) to construct a golem version of himself, which joined the party for the climax of the campaign. This is a case where the existence of raise dead plus a limit on its use lead to memorable events that would not have been possible if I had merely allowed it freely or made it impossible.
 

buddhafrog

First Post
The trouble with your stance is that the game has to be designed in one way or another. Either the game is designed to be commonly lethal and therefore requires the raise dead spell to be easily available, or it isn't.

I would prefer it to not be a default assumption that raise dead is a common tool for adventurers, and that death is avoidable enough that it isn't necessary for it to be a common tool.

I understand your point but disagree. There is no one lethality of D&D. The DM chooses how hard to make each battle and uses tools provided to make it "correct'y" difficult. But even then, many options and suggestions are given as to how lethal to make it.

My games are not too lethal, but if you die, you be gone forever (I let one monk PC return with only one arm and mentally not all there. He was a recurring comedic NPC at the local temple. I loved that half-Orc named "Half-Tooth" - only 1/2 of one tooth remained after that crit ogre smash to his face).

I think almost no one wants D&D to officially tell us how lethal to make our game. This is one of the utmost critical areas to require flexibility from game to game. IMO, this is not an edition issue, it's an important playing group issue.
 

Oldtimer

Great Old One
Publisher
I wish 4e had kept the idea they talked about in the preview books.

which is raise dead only works on people with "unfinished destinies".
I fell instantly in love with that explanation when I read it - it just makes perfect sense. I didn't even realize that it didn't make it into the actual rule books. What a shame.

And I like to have Raise Dead in my game.
 

Aenghus

Explorer
I disagree with the OP. The thing is this impacts differently on different players - some have loads of PC ideas and a PC death is an opportunity to play something else, others get attached to a particular Pc for whatever reason and want to continue to play them if possible.

At low level people aren't attached to PCs much and death is death. This changes for some players, as mentioned above, as characters grow in play.

Myself I houserule 4e raise dead by applying the destiny idea - only those with an unfinished destiny can return. This includes the PCs of players who want them to return generally, but gives the reason why the others can't return as well as making assassination useful in most cases.

This is where options are essentilal, as there is going to be a lot of disagreement on this topic. Options for some sort of raise dead are needed as many groups will want them available.
 

Elf Witch

First Post
As I said it is easier to say no to things then have to build something from scratch. In my current campaign the players know there is no raise dead available that there is only reincarnation. That and everyone gets a get out of death card free at the start of the campaign and they chose when to use it.

I really want the players handbook to have a statement about rule zero in it and let players know that just because something is RAW does not mean that DM can't change it for their campaign.
 

NewJeffCT

First Post
I wish 4e had kept the idea they talked about in the preview books.

which is raise dead only works on people with "unfinished destinies".

It gives perfect plausability to the DM. Why can the PCs be raised and this king npc can't?....unfinished destiny.

How come Joe could get raised at 10th level but now at 20th he can't be?....his destiny is finished.

Love this idea - hope they run with it for 5E.
 

Remove ads

Top