D&D 5E Let's discuss the Mystic v.3

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I don't really see how Adaptive Body invalidates survival scenarios. There rest of the group still has to eat. The Rangers invalidates that for free, by having guaranteed "you find food and water for 6 people. Every day. "
 

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hejtmane

Explorer
Action surge is a 2 level dip. That delay doesn't make a huge difference in white room, level 20, theorycrafting, but in actual play pushes back whatever your main class's features are by a ton, along with ASIs.

Fighting styles aren't breaking any games. The +2 damage/.5 average damage increase/+1 AC don't hold up too long. Archery style maybe if you are a sharpshooter...but rangers and fighters are the only ones taking that feat and they get a fighting style anyways.

Soul Knife level 1 is the 2nd best dual wielder in the game for free. Only way to beat it is feat+fighting style+2 magical weapons.

You could scale it like Monk fist/weapon start at 1d6 though and move to 1d8 at 5/6th level time frame
 

The trouble with making magic and psychics "different" is that there are a bunch of monsters with magic resistance, but none with psychic resistance. In most editions, that would be resolved with errata (change text on magic resistance to "spells, magical effects, and psychic abilities", but they are trying not to use errata for things like that.

It doesn't have to be errata'ed into the main books. In AD&D 2nd edition, when the Complete Psionics Handbook came out it just had a little addendum at the back detailing changes to monsters in psionic campaigns, e.g. "the Tarrasque is immune to all psionics." There's no reason 5E couldn't do the same.
 

zaratan

First Post
There is absolutely no guidelines to adjudicate exhaustion from a day of adventure, unless you are a barbarian with frenzy. Unless you pass several hours without sleeping, you don't eat for several days or yu don't drink any water. Climbing a mountain (RAW) don't increase exhaustion. You can do a ruling about it, but RAW, it doesn't say anything like that. I'm not to parch failures in any game if I don't want to, or else I would be playing AD&D.

Two rules I remember are travel more than 8h/day in PHB and dash 3+con in a roll (chasing in DMG), you start to make con saves against exhaustion.

Fallacy. When it comes to relevance, it is broken. They are abilities focused on survival. You can dismiss also balance in combat and give champions triple dice of damage every time they hit with a weapon, and +10 to hit. Why worry about combat balance if your adventures are going to be intrigue on a city or exploration of the wilderness?

Again, your problem is with Adaptative body focus, not the focus system.

And a druid must have it prepared to cast it as a ritual, as it has no magic book.

And mystic need to choose adaptative body to get that focus, and you can't focus in another discipline in the same time. This part is the same. But look again, your talking about adaptative body focus being to powerful, not a problem with the bonus action focus system.

I'm not "seeing it wrong". I'm seeing it RAW. Green dragon's breath is a gas. You don't breath. I don't know what a naja is. Cloudkill, EG, explicitly says that it affects creatures that don't need to breath too, the green dragon's breath don't. You could make a ruling about it, but, as I said earlier, there is no clear line about it, other than certain spells that specifically state that their targets don't need to breath to be affected.

This isn't RAW at all, where's say that don't affect creatures that don't breathe? If that was the case, any one can hold your breath for some seconds until leave the area. Look for chemical weapon to see if you're free of all effects only holding your breath.

Yes, you could choose any other enemy. See the monstruous damage the mystic does by punching. To compromise, let's take away the +2 from Strength. You still do at level 11th 7d10 from claws+7d6 from brute strike+7d6 (70 feet push) from knock back+1d8 Potent Psionics at 11th level, for less than a third of your resources (21 pps -you have 64 plus 9 "special"); let's say you have +4 to hit. You still have double concentration (as if you need it, most effects don't need it) to make other things. Go through the Monster Manual and see how many monsters expel gas. I did it when the mystic come around and from the dr to the go I've founded at least ten. As for the 30 AC, see how many creatures have something like it. I tell you: 0. The most armored creature is the Ancient Red Dragon, with 23 AC. An optimized figther with 20 on strength would need a 21 to hit that creature at the same level (+9), 19 if it is a champion or an archer. To create a challenge to the mystic, you screw anyone else in the party. The same old problem it has the wizard in prior editions.

This doesn't have nothing to do with the bonus action change focus. But ok, you can nova hard, I have 10 builds that can nova better, now what you'll do in the others 19 rounds/day and 3 to 4 non combat encounters? Divide all that nova damage for the entire day and you'll see that mystic don't get even close of the top DPR classes.

Already explained: 4, at level 1. The psi limit is for a single effect, not for round. If you are level 11 and want to make that monstruous damage, 21. Rememeber that I've cited the very first three disciplines (bestial form, adaptative body, brute force). I'm sure that there are more broken options afterwards.

And all that can be changed later, this is playtest. But that part don't have nothing to do with changing psychic focus with bonus action every turn.

Psionics are probably too strong at level 11th too and 20th, as they do escalate by level (the moon druid also had to know the creatures in which it shapeshifts; so if he never see a dire wolf and instead saw worgs, its most powerful option is moot. Even in dire wolf form its AC is very low, so it will be hit often). The moon druid, although awfully strong at level 20, still can be killed by a single disintegration spell. I'm not saying that the druid don't need a little balance (sure as hell it needs it; I'm currently trying with their wild form sharing the HP pool of the character, and if the creature has more HP, they are considered temporary hit points, but if it falls to 0 in dire wolf form, it remains on 0 on humanoid form), but as I said earlier, we are discussing the mystic here. And the mystic at level 20 don't even die, he just vanishes and reapears a few days later.

I did 3 builds, I compared with many others I did (I like character optimization a lot), and didn't see all that discrepancy at lvl 7, 11 and 17. I don't know exactly how psyonic mastery should work, that can make a real difference in the power level. But the most OP don't have nothing to do with how psionic focus works.


So it has a great nova. And a correction: what I'm giving you is at level 11, not level 16th. You can do all that freaky damage at level 11th in a single class. At that point, a sorlock would be 6th/5th, so your maximum spell slot will be at level 3. And it is an optimized multiclass for DAMAGE. Here, it still has a lot of both damage and utility, with a lot more survivability.

No, sorlock would be warlock 2/sorcerer 9, doing 6d10+6d6 +30 all day pushing enemy 60ft, this is 84avg, 5 combat encounter day, 4 rounds each, this is 1680 with bigger chance to hit. Now make mystic calculation: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...6gzfZb6N6XRj99CEto2MAXrWEk/edit#gid=309497876


Yes, we are discussing Psychic Focus. Psychic focus allows you to change the powers as needed to the task you need whenever you need it, excluding combat. For combat, as I've said earlier, they aren't as powerful, but for the OTHER pillars it's freakingly powerful. If you want some focus, at level 16th, I'll tell you:

1) Adaptative Body: incredibly powerful for utility and survival.
2) (Bestial Form): moot, incredibly marginal skill check. It has some use in combat, though.
3) Brute Force: Advantage on Athletics checks. Not even as useful as the 7th.
4) Diminution: Advantage on Stealth
5) Mantle of Fear: advantage on Intimidation.
7) Mastery of Force: Advantage on Strength checks. Athletics and saving throws included; it is about a +5 on every freaking strength check.
8) Mastery of Air: You ignore difficult terrain, and you have Feather Fall always active on yourself, without having to expend a single resource.
9)Telepathic Contact: Because telepathy is fun.

You change them as needed, granting you advantage on strength, telepathy, feather fall or difficult terrain for exploration, and if you need underwater exploration you don't have to renounce to your AB. You have advantage on Intimidation when you need to interact, and telepathy when you need stealth and communication.

I'm not even counting talents, ASIs or proficiencies.

You change them back whenever you need it too. In combat, if you have some intel, you can change your wisdom ST for another save if you need (although it would be stupid to change them for Strength), your potent psionics do 2d8 every time you hit, and you can mind thrust anyone with your high intelligence. You can nova, and concentrate on multiple effects with your 2 Psionic Masteries and 18 extra PPs, so concentration isn't a thing for you. You also cannot die, as you recover 5 temporary hit points every round, you have 16 extra HPs, and you can create inertial armor and though hide to further bump your AC (for a total of +4). Let's say you are subpar, and you have 10 str, 14 on Dex and Con, 20 on Int, 10 at wis and Cha: on average you have 128 hit points, and 18 AC to for 4 PPs. You regain +5 temporary hit points every round (this isn't all that powerful, but surely helps), and every time you use a psychic effect you recover a few hit points if you don't want to nova (7 on a Claw attack). You can cheat death using your psychic focus, and if you short rest you have it again. Say you are a gnome: you are resistant to magic. If you are a human and you want to further advance your survability, you take Resilient and have Constitution or Dexterity saving throws and +1 at level 1. Say you are an elf, you have resistance to charm and immunity to sleep and a cantrip. Say you are a mountain dwarf, and you have proficiency on axes and medium armor (and poison resistance, and such). Say you are a hill dwarf, and you have 16 extra hp.

All of them increase your prime stats, and give you some neat benefit. And even if you are a very subpar character, you still kick ass.

Yeah, now we're talking about focus system. Its flexible, you have many options, but you can't use them all the time, you don't have proficiency in all those skill to make that advantage absurd, you'll not use that all day. You even can't pick the better ones, in your list there is two almost redundant, you didn't picked Nomadic Mind focus that is amazing (but don't stack with skill advantages), just because the entire discipline don't fit your build. My list at lvl 16 has only 3 of your disciplines.

Intimidation is a small part of social interaction, you have only half thelepathy (they can't respond), feather fall will not help you, because you was focused in strenght adv, or another thing that moment. Than your DM clain that you need to climb that montain stealthily, and your big advantage was halved.

you can't change the ST in combat, only when you fish a rest.

yes, you're versatile, but bard is too, and is better than mystic at skills, all the time. Rogue are even better at skills and damage than mystic when we compare the entire day, and rogue damage at 20 don't get close of fighter/barbarian/paladin/sorlock, but mystic have some advantages, psychic focus is one. 3 of 6 mystic's subclass only get proficiency in two skills

yeah, focus is a great feature, but if would be a short rest change, many options would be useless. No I'll never use it to get advantage in animal handling because I need it to stealth. No I'll not change to telepathy, because I need for stealth. Yeah, use it to athletics now would be great, but better I keep stealth, because I'll need that later... see what would happen if you could change it only for short or long rest?

Must thing you pointed out I think will be corrected later, this is a playtest, but I doubt a little about focus system.
 

Erechel

Explorer
In fact, I picked the disciplines at glance, as if I were a random, non optimized player. I have not a "build", only picked the ones that look interesting, as my stupid damage is pretty much covered by two disciplines (Brute Force and Bestial Form). Yes, I hate Adaptative Body. I've always said that. I hate it. The Focus mechanic is PROBLEMATIC, but I don't hate it, at least if it's limited in some way (like requiring a Short Rest to change it again); you wanted to discuss psychic focus only, ignoring everything else. The fact is that the Psychic focus is pretty much the best at-will that a character needs, and it's very easy to change it. Change it as a bonus action, but limit it to 1/short rest, and you will be actually talking about a balanced, and still useful, passive. You will be talking about options. Yes, it's easy to house rule it, but you wouldn't need to if it weren't broken.

It's easy also to limit some of the AB abilities; make the AB psychic eat only half rations, and hold its breath for twice as much time, and sleep half as much, and you still will have a great survival focus. And as someone said earlier, previous cheese don't justify future cheese.

The fact is that you need only a few disciplines to make a "Build" (I pretty much hate that word); and a stupid build is still pretty much powerful and abarcative. I've made a level 16th that way because it is an NPC based on an AD&D player character who played stupidly and random, wanting to punch everyone; and chose similar powers, but some of their former companions were super useful as dramatic villains, and other (a nasty Necromancer with very high stats) is a reluctant ally both to the actual party and the psion NPC. AS I said earlier, I've made a subpar character on purpose, to show how powerful and versatile it is even that way. If I could make something like that in a few minutes, someone who purposefully choose to "build" a powerful and versatile character could do it very quickly, and it will be very nasty.
 


zaratan

First Post
So, you are comparing a pretty much optimized build centered on damage with a subpar character with lots of versatility?
Just to show that mystic advantage really is versatility, like bards, not damage. Yes they can nova, but if you see the damage output of entire day, is lower than any martial class and at least two casters (I think cleric can beat they too with spirit guardian and spiritual weapon, but never did cleric calculation). And to get a high damage, they need to sacrifice to much pp, losing versatility.

About focus, I wouldn't change that, but if I needed, I would make 2x short rest.
Just one time could happen what I said, you'll necer change to some opyions, because you know your primary is more important. Even 2x short rest can be a problem, because you can't travel to combat to non combat focus.

Whrn I readed the 28 pages my first tought was "this is way OP". When I started to make builds and see that you need to abdicate many things and one character can't have all, seemed more balanced, not emtire balanced of couse.
 

Wunderkid

First Post
The way I'd 'fix' focus is have it so you can change it int mod times per short rest. Stops people flicking through Willy nilly. Means you change when you really have to. But gives a nice level of changes for the truly mentally focused.
 

Nurr

First Post
If I missed something my apologies. After a very brief look at the Mystic I noticed the absence of a Shaper equivalent.
 

Coliath

First Post
The higher levels are a little OP. I know it looks like to psi point drops off but with psi mastery you gain 9 more, and with these 9 you can concentrate on multiple abilities with the conc tag. That is HUGE! invisible wall to block foes (3), aura of bloodletting (3) to murder them and incite fear (2) to force one to run away (which he only gets one save against because he wont be able to get away because of the wall).

I agree that the Orders should be more tied to the disciplines in some way. something like you can only get certain disciplines from taking an order. each order has something like 4 core disciplines that can only be taken if you are part of that order. leaving 20 disciplines that are open to be learned by any mystic.

I think the Talents, aka cantrips, should be a little more tied to the Orders too. like each order has a Talent that the others cannot get.

And lastly, these guys in general need to get some nerfing beyond the narrowing of discipline access.
 

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