Clockwerk66
First Post
Originally posted by mellored:
Looking at the level 1-3 of the classes in support of other classes.
Level 4 is a ability bump, so it's the same anywhere.
And level 5 isn't really a dip anymore, but rather striaght multiclassing.
Barbarian:
Good defense for tough battles. Danger Sense.
Raging will give alot of survivability 2x per day, assuming you can make use of unarmoed defense. It's use depends on if your DM likes large battles, or alot of little ones.
Danger sense is all around nice for anyone to have.
Reckless attack is good in a few situations, like finishing off a wounded foe, but the downside is too big for general use without the rage resistance.
Bear and wolf rages can be used in heavy armor.
Bard:
Adds some general skills and utilty.
Insperation is all around helpful (an extra
if you have +5 Cha) and you get an extra skill.
Alot of the spells are utility and support, and don't fade as you level.
Jack of all trades can be good for smaller parties who need more skills covered.
Lore get's you more skills for the skill monkey in you, as well as better uses for Inpseration.
Cleric:
Tank up.
You can get heavy armor, shields, martial weapon, guidance cantrip, and a full spellcaster level all for a level 1 dip.
If you lack Str, there's other good domains features, like light and knowlage, leting you run in full speed medium.
Tempest and war can make a possible level 2 dip, for nova's, but the real benifit is level 1.
No reason to goto 3 unless there's a specific spell you want.
Druid: Scale by druid level. Some spells and utility.
You get caster levels, and possibly a few choice spells.
Low level wild shape could have a few uses like getting animal sesnse or movement.
The biggest benifit is the extra HP, which is fairly front loaded, but it shuts down any other class feature to use it.
Fighter:
Action surge.
If you start fighter, you can get full proficencies, con saves, and a nice fighting style boost. Second wind won't scale.
Action surge is universally powerful, opening up many combo's or just strong nova's.
Battlemaster has some choice abilites that scale (commander's strike, Feinting do not need weapons), and it's damage is pretty front loaded. The other's are lackluster.
Monk: Unarmed Defense
Unarmoed defense can add some AC if your going to focus Dex/Wis. This get's a few
for druid.
Martial arts is a slight upgrade from TWF.
Speed is univerally helpful, if not amazing.
The rest requires ki, which is in limited supply.
Paladin:
Proficencies.
Starting paladin can give you proficenies, but you can do better by either dipping cleric or fighter.
Smites have weak scaling , however they can be a great nova.
Vow of emnity and sacred wepon can help with major fights, but otherwise are limited in use.
Ranger: Skills, Hunter's Mark.
If your campaign takes place in a paticular area, you can net some good skills. Though this is setting depenant.
A number of ranger spells scale well.
Hunter's get some nice beneifts, but not 3 levels worth nice.
Beasts are good for scouts and trap triggers, but they won't last without ranger levels.
Rogue:
Skills, Cunning Action, Assassinate
If you start rogue, you get 2 extra skills, instead of 1 when you MC into it.
Expertise is very good for high impact skills (stealth, preception). Sneak attack doesn't scale, but it's free.
Cunning action is all around useful.
Assassin is a great nova and not limited to weapons. The other sub-classes add some utility, but probably not enough.
Sorcerer:
Metamagic
You don't get much from your level 1 or 2 dip, but at level 3, you can trade out your higher level spots to spam your lower level spells, or get twin a concentraion spells (flight, haste, or invisibillty). It's expensive in both slots and levels, but can be very potent with good spell selection and the right party.
Warlock
Eldrich Blast
Level 1 is get's you Hex which can be a big damage bump to multi-attackers
Level 2 you can get agonising blast, some other nice utiilty (devils sight, repulsive blast). This gives you a strong scaling attack cantrip and allows you to focus on other things, such as utility.
Pact of the Chain add alot of ultity with the improved familair.
Tome can net you Shillelagh, for Cha based weapon attacks (great for pallies and valor bards).
This get's an extra
if the prerequisit for invocations is total character level, and allows you to cast polymorph 1/day, or levitate at-will.
Wizard:
Portent, Minor Conjuration, or Grim Harvest.
Nothing at level 1 or 3, but level 2 has some nice options.
Knowing a d20 roll ahead of time is helpful and let's you do thing you might not of otherwise attempted.
Minor Conjuration (and minor alchamy) has all sorts of possible shinnanigans, depending on your DM.
Grim Harvest can give a good chunk of healing, but it's a bit weak for 2.
Thoughts?
Originally posted by Yunru:
Barbarian could be rated slightly higher. If you going full-out tank, a single level dip into barbarian (and admittedly a 20 in Con and Dex but hey, finesse weapons) can net you a non-magical AC of 22 thanks to Unarmored Defense and a shield.
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves:
Wizard 2 could be handy for necro-killers, though without the Death domain it's hard to say.
You covered attack warlocks, but repelling blast is something worth it on its own - no-save battlefield control.
Bards - no reason to go to 3 may be a bit harsh, what with Expertise sitting their - if you're already dipping could be quite useful, esp. paired w/ college of Lore.
Originally posted by mellored:
3>2.
Originally posted by Rancid_Rogue:
Knowledge Cleric-1 may be the best 1-level dip for a Wizard or Sorcerer. Heavy armor makes either class too slow to run away from a lost fight -- and the early reports suggest that 5E wisely goes back to the assumption that you can't win every fight. A breastplate with Dexterity 14 is -2 AC compared to full plate, but you can be stealthy and fast and will gain two much-appreciated skill slots.
Rogue-2 can't be overrated, I suspect. Cunning Action is that useful.
Monk-1 only really helps a Wisdom-secondary Rogue, in my reading. Given Assassins and Arcane Tricksters will want Charisma and Intelligence respectively, that leaves the Thief to benefit, and only after finding some Bracers of Defense+3 and assuming those don't get rewritten in the DMG.
The problem with MCing Barbarian is that to do it right you kind of need a Strength-based attack, and the only people sporting those already have the Human with Heavy Armor Mastery option to go plate and -3 damage per mundane attack already. That's probably more effective in winning fights, right out of the gate.
Originally posted by NN1:
Originally posted by Polaris:
-Polaris
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves:
Originally posted by mellored:
Also, extra skills makes jack-of-all trades weaker.
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves:
From our other discussion - I'm really considering a Warlock 3 (Tome) / Paladin remainder (Oath of the Ancients). All kids of Fey-fluff synergy, but most importantly the ability to snag 3 cantrips from any class. Combined w/ Shillelagh "for the duration, you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for attack and damage rolls of melee attacks with that weapon". This puts attack/damage on CHA, then you can be a CHA-melee pally. You get the CHA-focused charm/scare plus a few other utilty spells if you like and you're CHA-nice with your SMites / etc.
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves:
Originally posted by bid:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves:
Originally posted by Siderealmotion:
Lore Bard 3 gives access to 3 skills, Expertise for 2 skills, Cutting Words, and a lot of really good 2nd level Bard spells. I'd hardly say there's "no reason" to go to Bard 3.
Originally posted by Seraphex:
Hex might be worth a mention for Warlock, a level one dip nets you something very similar to Hunter's Mark.
Originally posted by Ashrym:
Yeah, if a person is going to 2nd level bard for jack-of-all-trades then there is little reason not to take one more level for additional uses for inspiration, 3 more skills, a 2nd level spell known and full caster progression, and expertise. That 3rd level is worth more than 1st or 2nd level. It gives more than the feat and allows for spending the feat on something else where the level break in the other classes in the MC could offer little. I don't think I would multi-class bard without at least 3 levels.
Originally posted by Siderealmotion:
Originally posted by Ashrym:
Originally posted by bid:
Originally posted by feartheminotaur:
I would think Rogue would be equal to Cleric - almost a must do if your primary stat is physical. Assassinate (3), or at least cunning action (2), is that useful for anyone with a STR or DEX score of any note.
Originally posted by IxidorRS:
Let's say I want to build a Figher+Monk. If I only want 3 levels of Fighter, is it better to wait and pick up the feat/improve and take 4 levels of fighter before MCing at 5?
I think for the building I'm planning, I'll be going to take the 4th level in fighter to pick up a feat and then MC. (Human Fighter4/MonkX, Sentinel, Polearm Expert, either Open
Hand or Elemental for proning on Flurry or proning with Water Whip. Fighter is for proning on OAs).
Generally speaking as well, is it better when the next level is a feat/improve to take the next level or go right to the MC?
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves:
Originally posted by mellored:
yea, ok i'll add it.
Originally posted by mellored:
But if you stop at level 3 fighter, you get 1 more level of monk, which comes with more ki. And at monk 4, you still get your feat.
Originally posted by mellored:
Cleric is 1 level. And it's a caster level at that.
Originally posted by Ashrym:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves:
Originally posted by OrwellianHaggis:
Do you gain save proficiencies and skills when you multiclass?
Originally posted by Leugren:
I'm puzzled that you didn't mention the Barbarian's level 2 Reckless Attack feature, which effectively nets you advantage on all of your Strength-based attacks whenever you want, and is not tied to rage at all. Also, as a level 3 Bear Totem Warrior, I net resistance to all damage except psychic in three encounters per day. If those two features don't warrant even a single thumbs up for Strength-based characters, them I'm not sure I understand the criteria you are using.
Also, I strongly disagree with your assessment of low-level wildshaping for Druids. A 2nd-level Circle of the Moon druid effectively has a reservoir of up to 90 temporary hit points (e.g. if he wildshapes twice into a Giant Hyena) that he can replenish every time he takes a short rest. This at a time when even the toughest characters are running around with far less than 30 HP. The Dire Wolf form offers the equivalent of 74 temp HP if used twice, has decent damage (2d6+3), pack tactics for advantage, and can inflict the prone position every time it lands a hit. The CoM Druid can also burn up spell slots while in Wildshape form as a bonus action in order to heal himself for 1d8 per spell level, so the temporary hit point totals I mention above are actually understated. The text does not say that these need to be Druid spell slots either. Definitely dip-worthy. In fact, I really can't think of a better return on investment if you want to improve your survivability. A 2nd-level CoM Druid is a beast (no pun intended) compared to other 2nd-level characters. This is the guy that I'd be putting up against Cyanwrath in Hoard of the Dragon Queen. He's the only one that could stand up to the punishment for more than a couple of rounds. Assuming a Con of 14, his effective hit points are 17 (druid) + 90 (2 x giant hyena wildshape) = 107, which does not include up to 3d8 in healing from spell slots burned in wildshape form. Use Guidance to try to win initiative, cast Faerie Fire on Cyanwrath, and then wildshape into a Giant Hyena as a bonus action. When the first Giant Hyena reaches 0 HP, use wildshape to turn into a Giant Hyena again as a bonus action on your next turn. Chances are fair that you will win the fight.
Originally posted by ppaladin123:
No save proficiencies. Some classes give you 1 extra skill.
Originally posted by Yunru:
Less of a simple dip and more of a (partial) build, but Sorcerer 3|Warlock 3|X and Alter Form nets you a +1 magic weapon for an unarmed strike. Very useful for Monks (especially nice is the min. 1d6+1 damage). Start with Sorcerer to get Con saves and Alter Form early. Warlock is for the recharging spell slot allowing you to use Alter Form every encounter. Also Eldritch Blast is always nice.
On a monk, if you go Dragon Sorcerer you also remove some of the MADness thanks to 13+dex (Wis only needed for MCing?).
Hell, depending on how you feel about your primary class' F13 and F14, go Sorcerer 4|Warlock 4|X 12 and you still get a full set of ASIs (unless X is fighter but eh).
Originally posted by mellored:
I suppose barbarins derserve 1 thumb.
Originally posted by Leugren:
Originally posted by mellored:
Originally posted by Leugren:
EDIT: You don't have to shut down all of your class features in order to use it, as you claim. Abilities like Action Surge, Extra Attack, Cunning Action, Rage, Reckless Attack, Bear Totem Warrior Damage Resistance, etc., all work just fine when you are in beast form.
Originally posted by Jell_Moo:
My issue with the Druid dip is that it doesn't really enhance your primary role. Whether it's melee or spellcasting, it doesn't make you flat out better at it. The hit point buffer is nice and all, but it uses your Action for the round, and pulls you out of your primary role. Most classes will have an ability or spell that will accomplish something remarably similar, without being pulled out of their role to do so.
I do think it has some niche uses though. A Beast Master Ranger for example could see some fun use with Wild Shape, turning into a Panther for the 50ft move speed, and then having his pet do a lot of the dirty work.
But as a pure combat application, I don't think it really enhances you enough to be considered a high end dip. Now, this could certainly change as more sourcebooks get released.
Originally posted by Leugren:
Originally posted by Jell_Moo:
The problem is that you lose out on either an Action or Bonus Action.
For example, if you are a Druid of the Moon, and you use your Bonus Action to shift, you still have your Action to attack, sure, but you are now stuck in the form until your next turn. Your Reactions are now essentially limited, which can make a huge impact depending on your build.
Plus, even some pretty basic abilities get lost in the shuffle. Fighting Style abilities, for example, get lost throughout the entirety of the round. This is on top of the lower damage you are already almost certainly doing on any attacks.
Yes, it has some advantages, absolutely, but there are some fairly significant downsides as well, which is one of the issues it has for being a great dip.
Originally posted by Leugren:
I believe that, once people see a Circle of the Moon Druid in actual play, particularly at low levels, there will be a great public outcry about how "broken" it is.
Originally posted by Jell_Moo:
I'm sorry, I just don't see it. It just screams niche to me. You're right, it has some fun applications, but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule. At low level, it does seem really neat, but the practicality of it wanes pretty quickly. The only builds I can see really work with it are Barbarian and Ranger builds. Everything else just loses out too much to really make the trick work. Compare it to what a single level dip in something like Fighter or Cleric gives you, which becomes applicable to a very wide variety of builds.
I don't think it's bad, I just think that it's very niche.
Originally posted by Bumbaklot:
I think that the wildshape has a pretty strong place for multiclassing spellcasters though.
As Leugren wrote, there is a fairly vast pool of temporary hit points. Above and beyond that, It is my understanding that the spell levels achieved from multiclassing another main spell-casting class into druid stack very well. Not only does the spellcaster gain extra spells from being a druid, that character would also gain higher level slots which he could use.
The temporary hit point pool could be used in a pinch also. It is especially nice once you are higher level overall. When your beast form drops to 0 hp, and you auto-transform out of the shapeshift, you would not be brought to 0 hp in your caster form.
Its a nice reactionary move since its a bonus action, and it can give you some melee versatility when your character might not have any. If I'm reading it right, the player's proficiency bonus gets added if it's higher than the beast's.
<3.
Looking at the level 1-3 of the classes in support of other classes.
Level 4 is a ability bump, so it's the same anywhere.
And level 5 isn't really a dip anymore, but rather striaght multiclassing.
Barbarian:
Raging will give alot of survivability 2x per day, assuming you can make use of unarmoed defense. It's use depends on if your DM likes large battles, or alot of little ones.
Danger sense is all around nice for anyone to have.
Reckless attack is good in a few situations, like finishing off a wounded foe, but the downside is too big for general use without the rage resistance.
Bear and wolf rages can be used in heavy armor.
Bard:
Insperation is all around helpful (an extra
Alot of the spells are utility and support, and don't fade as you level.
Jack of all trades can be good for smaller parties who need more skills covered.
Lore get's you more skills for the skill monkey in you, as well as better uses for Inpseration.
Cleric:
You can get heavy armor, shields, martial weapon, guidance cantrip, and a full spellcaster level all for a level 1 dip.
If you lack Str, there's other good domains features, like light and knowlage, leting you run in full speed medium.
Tempest and war can make a possible level 2 dip, for nova's, but the real benifit is level 1.
No reason to goto 3 unless there's a specific spell you want.
Druid: Scale by druid level. Some spells and utility.
You get caster levels, and possibly a few choice spells.
Low level wild shape could have a few uses like getting animal sesnse or movement.
The biggest benifit is the extra HP, which is fairly front loaded, but it shuts down any other class feature to use it.
Fighter:
If you start fighter, you can get full proficencies, con saves, and a nice fighting style boost. Second wind won't scale.
Action surge is universally powerful, opening up many combo's or just strong nova's.
Battlemaster has some choice abilites that scale (commander's strike, Feinting do not need weapons), and it's damage is pretty front loaded. The other's are lackluster.
Monk: Unarmed Defense
Unarmoed defense can add some AC if your going to focus Dex/Wis. This get's a few
Martial arts is a slight upgrade from TWF.
Speed is univerally helpful, if not amazing.
The rest requires ki, which is in limited supply.
Paladin:
Starting paladin can give you proficenies, but you can do better by either dipping cleric or fighter.
Smites have weak scaling , however they can be a great nova.
Vow of emnity and sacred wepon can help with major fights, but otherwise are limited in use.
Ranger: Skills, Hunter's Mark.
If your campaign takes place in a paticular area, you can net some good skills. Though this is setting depenant.
A number of ranger spells scale well.
Hunter's get some nice beneifts, but not 3 levels worth nice.
Beasts are good for scouts and trap triggers, but they won't last without ranger levels.
Rogue:
If you start rogue, you get 2 extra skills, instead of 1 when you MC into it.
Expertise is very good for high impact skills (stealth, preception). Sneak attack doesn't scale, but it's free.
Cunning action is all around useful.
Assassin is a great nova and not limited to weapons. The other sub-classes add some utility, but probably not enough.
Sorcerer:
You don't get much from your level 1 or 2 dip, but at level 3, you can trade out your higher level spots to spam your lower level spells, or get twin a concentraion spells (flight, haste, or invisibillty). It's expensive in both slots and levels, but can be very potent with good spell selection and the right party.
Warlock
Level 1 is get's you Hex which can be a big damage bump to multi-attackers
Level 2 you can get agonising blast, some other nice utiilty (devils sight, repulsive blast). This gives you a strong scaling attack cantrip and allows you to focus on other things, such as utility.
Pact of the Chain add alot of ultity with the improved familair.
Tome can net you Shillelagh, for Cha based weapon attacks (great for pallies and valor bards).
This get's an extra
Wizard:
Nothing at level 1 or 3, but level 2 has some nice options.
Knowing a d20 roll ahead of time is helpful and let's you do thing you might not of otherwise attempted.
Minor Conjuration (and minor alchamy) has all sorts of possible shinnanigans, depending on your DM.
Grim Harvest can give a good chunk of healing, but it's a bit weak for 2.
Thoughts?
Originally posted by Yunru:
Barbarian could be rated slightly higher. If you going full-out tank, a single level dip into barbarian (and admittedly a 20 in Con and Dex but hey, finesse weapons) can net you a non-magical AC of 22 thanks to Unarmored Defense and a shield.
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves:
Wizard 2 could be handy for necro-killers, though without the Death domain it's hard to say.
You covered attack warlocks, but repelling blast is something worth it on its own - no-save battlefield control.
Bards - no reason to go to 3 may be a bit harsh, what with Expertise sitting their - if you're already dipping could be quite useful, esp. paired w/ college of Lore.
Originally posted by mellored:
That one's not bad.
You can get 3 skills by taking a feat. Which also doesn't slow down your main class.
3>2.
Originally posted by Rancid_Rogue:
Knowledge Cleric-1 may be the best 1-level dip for a Wizard or Sorcerer. Heavy armor makes either class too slow to run away from a lost fight -- and the early reports suggest that 5E wisely goes back to the assumption that you can't win every fight. A breastplate with Dexterity 14 is -2 AC compared to full plate, but you can be stealthy and fast and will gain two much-appreciated skill slots.
Rogue-2 can't be overrated, I suspect. Cunning Action is that useful.
Monk-1 only really helps a Wisdom-secondary Rogue, in my reading. Given Assassins and Arcane Tricksters will want Charisma and Intelligence respectively, that leaves the Thief to benefit, and only after finding some Bracers of Defense+3 and assuming those don't get rewritten in the DMG.
The problem with MCing Barbarian is that to do it right you kind of need a Strength-based attack, and the only people sporting those already have the Human with Heavy Armor Mastery option to go plate and -3 damage per mundane attack already. That's probably more effective in winning fights, right out of the gate.
Originally posted by NN1:
Knowledge clerics only get medium armor, which still isn't bad. Also, heavy armor doesn't reduce your movement speed. You can get heavy armor with certain domains (~1/2 of them), but knowledge isn't one of them.
Originally posted by Polaris:
Many Heavy Armors will lower your movement speed if your strength isn't high enough (13) or you aren't a Dwarf. That said, as you indicate Medium Armor is hardly bad.
-Polaris
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves:
That's a breakpoint question though, right? I mean, if it was a choice of feat vs. a bard level, that's the question. My feedback was mostly "if you're bard 2, bard 3 isn't necessarily a bad thing". It may not be a simple question of feat vs level; the choice may be level in X or Y.
Originally posted by mellored:
That's my breakpoint yes. If it's worse then a feat, it's not good.Since you could simply level up in your main class, and get 3.
Also, extra skills makes jack-of-all trades weaker.
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves:
From our other discussion - I'm really considering a Warlock 3 (Tome) / Paladin remainder (Oath of the Ancients). All kids of Fey-fluff synergy, but most importantly the ability to snag 3 cantrips from any class. Combined w/ Shillelagh "for the duration, you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for attack and damage rolls of melee attacks with that weapon". This puts attack/damage on CHA, then you can be a CHA-melee pally. You get the CHA-focused charm/scare plus a few other utilty spells if you like and you're CHA-nice with your SMites / etc.
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves:
I guess where I was going on the breakpoint was "it may not be as good as a feat, but it may not be a choice between a feat and that"
Originally posted by bid:
Magic Initiate feat offers that too.
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves:
It does not; if selected w/ Magic Initiate it would key on Wisdom.
Originally posted by Siderealmotion:
Lore Bard 3 gives access to 3 skills, Expertise for 2 skills, Cutting Words, and a lot of really good 2nd level Bard spells. I'd hardly say there's "no reason" to go to Bard 3.
Originally posted by Seraphex:
Hex might be worth a mention for Warlock, a level one dip nets you something very similar to Hunter's Mark.
Originally posted by Ashrym:
Yeah, if a person is going to 2nd level bard for jack-of-all-trades then there is little reason not to take one more level for additional uses for inspiration, 3 more skills, a 2nd level spell known and full caster progression, and expertise. That 3rd level is worth more than 1st or 2nd level. It gives more than the feat and allows for spending the feat on something else where the level break in the other classes in the MC could offer little. I don't think I would multi-class bard without at least 3 levels.
Originally posted by Siderealmotion:
You can actually end up with 2 level 2 Bard spells, as one of the class features is trading in a spell for a different one every level.
Originally posted by Ashrym:
True.
Originally posted by bid:
Oh, I see. Pact of the Tome does not have the "your spellcasting ability" that Magic Initiate has, and Shillellagh is druid-only.
Originally posted by feartheminotaur:
I would think Rogue would be equal to Cleric - almost a must do if your primary stat is physical. Assassinate (3), or at least cunning action (2), is that useful for anyone with a STR or DEX score of any note.
Originally posted by IxidorRS:
Let's say I want to build a Figher+Monk. If I only want 3 levels of Fighter, is it better to wait and pick up the feat/improve and take 4 levels of fighter before MCing at 5?
I think for the building I'm planning, I'll be going to take the 4th level in fighter to pick up a feat and then MC. (Human Fighter4/MonkX, Sentinel, Polearm Expert, either Open
Hand or Elemental for proning on Flurry or proning with Water Whip. Fighter is for proning on OAs).
Generally speaking as well, is it better when the next level is a feat/improve to take the next level or go right to the MC?
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves:
Yeah, exactly - lets you stack CHA.
Originally posted by mellored:
Ohh.. nice call.
Wierd, i read that as 2 skills...
yea, ok i'll add it.
Originally posted by mellored:
Possibly a feat.
But if you stop at level 3 fighter, you get 1 more level of monk, which comes with more ki. And at monk 4, you still get your feat.
Originally posted by mellored:
Except it takes 3 levels of rogue.. Each level is good, but that's 3 levels you are behind on your main class.
Cleric is 1 level. And it's a caster level at that.
Originally posted by Ashrym:
I'm tempted to snag shillelagh on a bard for the same reason. That cuts stat investment down and makes a magic weapon readily available. Give him a staff and the criminal background and call him gambit.
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves:
Oddly enough, Thief Acrobats from 3.5 didn't advance sneaking. The thief acrobat in 5e is apparrently a Lore college Bard w/ the Criminal background.
Originally posted by OrwellianHaggis:
Do you gain save proficiencies and skills when you multiclass?
Originally posted by Leugren:
I'm puzzled that you didn't mention the Barbarian's level 2 Reckless Attack feature, which effectively nets you advantage on all of your Strength-based attacks whenever you want, and is not tied to rage at all. Also, as a level 3 Bear Totem Warrior, I net resistance to all damage except psychic in three encounters per day. If those two features don't warrant even a single thumbs up for Strength-based characters, them I'm not sure I understand the criteria you are using.
Also, I strongly disagree with your assessment of low-level wildshaping for Druids. A 2nd-level Circle of the Moon druid effectively has a reservoir of up to 90 temporary hit points (e.g. if he wildshapes twice into a Giant Hyena) that he can replenish every time he takes a short rest. This at a time when even the toughest characters are running around with far less than 30 HP. The Dire Wolf form offers the equivalent of 74 temp HP if used twice, has decent damage (2d6+3), pack tactics for advantage, and can inflict the prone position every time it lands a hit. The CoM Druid can also burn up spell slots while in Wildshape form as a bonus action in order to heal himself for 1d8 per spell level, so the temporary hit point totals I mention above are actually understated. The text does not say that these need to be Druid spell slots either. Definitely dip-worthy. In fact, I really can't think of a better return on investment if you want to improve your survivability. A 2nd-level CoM Druid is a beast (no pun intended) compared to other 2nd-level characters. This is the guy that I'd be putting up against Cyanwrath in Hoard of the Dragon Queen. He's the only one that could stand up to the punishment for more than a couple of rounds. Assuming a Con of 14, his effective hit points are 17 (druid) + 90 (2 x giant hyena wildshape) = 107, which does not include up to 3d8 in healing from spell slots burned in wildshape form. Use Guidance to try to win initiative, cast Faerie Fire on Cyanwrath, and then wildshape into a Giant Hyena as a bonus action. When the first Giant Hyena reaches 0 HP, use wildshape to turn into a Giant Hyena again as a bonus action on your next turn. Chances are fair that you will win the fight.
Originally posted by ppaladin123:
OrwellianHaggis wroteo you gain save proficiencies and skills when you multiclass?
No save proficiencies. Some classes give you 1 extra skill.
Originally posted by Yunru:
Less of a simple dip and more of a (partial) build, but Sorcerer 3|Warlock 3|X and Alter Form nets you a +1 magic weapon for an unarmed strike. Very useful for Monks (especially nice is the min. 1d6+1 damage). Start with Sorcerer to get Con saves and Alter Form early. Warlock is for the recharging spell slot allowing you to use Alter Form every encounter. Also Eldritch Blast is always nice.
On a monk, if you go Dragon Sorcerer you also remove some of the MADness thanks to 13+dex (Wis only needed for MCing?).
Hell, depending on how you feel about your primary class' F13 and F14, go Sorcerer 4|Warlock 4|X 12 and you still get a full set of ASIs (unless X is fighter but eh).
Originally posted by mellored:
Added it. Though, without support (rage), it's only good in a few situations, like if you only need 1 hit.
I noted the bear totem. But that's 3 levels.
I suppose barbarins derserve 1 thumb.
Burning a slot for 1d8 HP isn't that great.And while 2d6+3 and 30 HP is pretty good for level 3, it's not going to scale, and it comes with low AC as well.
Originally posted by Leugren:
Fair enough, but it's not 2d6+3 and 30 HP; it's 2d6+3 and 90 HP per short rest, because you can turn into a Giant Hyena with HP = 45 twice between short rests, and the extra HP is in addition to whatever HP your normal form grants you. If you take a single short rest between encounters during the average day, that's potentially 180 extra HP per day. Flip it on when you're down to 5 HP, and it will save your bacon even if you are 20th level. Since most campaigns will never get that high, I think that most characters will benefit from this ability just fine. Consider that the average HP for a 20th level wizard with a Con of 14 is only 8 + 6*19 = 122.
Originally posted by mellored:
It's reasonably frontloaded yes, but it doesn't scale.
Originally posted by Leugren:
I respectfully disagree that it has to scale in order to be a worthy investment. Potentially having an extra 180 HP per day (assuming you take 1 short rest during the day) is mindblowing at 2nd level, but still relevant at 20th level when a wizard with a Con of 14 only has an average of 122 HP and a rogue with a Con of 14 only has an average of 143 HP.
EDIT: You don't have to shut down all of your class features in order to use it, as you claim. Abilities like Action Surge, Extra Attack, Cunning Action, Rage, Reckless Attack, Bear Totem Warrior Damage Resistance, etc., all work just fine when you are in beast form.
Originally posted by Jell_Moo:
My issue with the Druid dip is that it doesn't really enhance your primary role. Whether it's melee or spellcasting, it doesn't make you flat out better at it. The hit point buffer is nice and all, but it uses your Action for the round, and pulls you out of your primary role. Most classes will have an ability or spell that will accomplish something remarably similar, without being pulled out of their role to do so.
I do think it has some niche uses though. A Beast Master Ranger for example could see some fun use with Wild Shape, turning into a Panther for the 50ft move speed, and then having his pet do a lot of the dirty work.
But as a pure combat application, I don't think it really enhances you enough to be considered a high end dip. Now, this could certainly change as more sourcebooks get released.
Originally posted by Leugren:
If your primary role is damage mitigation, then the Druid dip is perfect. Damage mitigation plays a functional role that is very similar to healing. You absorb damage that would otherwise be distributed among the other members of your party. As I stated above, you also don't have to shut down all of your class features in order to use it. Abilities like Action Surge, Extra Attack, Cunning Action, Rage, Reckless Attack, Bear Totem Warrior Damage Resistance, etc., all work just fine when you are in beast form, according to the rules. Also, it does not require an action if you are a Circle of the Moon Druid. You can switch into your beast form using a bonus action. The biggest problem I can see is that your natural weapons do not count as magic weapons for purposes of overcoming resistance until you reach level 6 IIRC.
Originally posted by Jell_Moo:
The problem is that you lose out on either an Action or Bonus Action.
For example, if you are a Druid of the Moon, and you use your Bonus Action to shift, you still have your Action to attack, sure, but you are now stuck in the form until your next turn. Your Reactions are now essentially limited, which can make a huge impact depending on your build.
Plus, even some pretty basic abilities get lost in the shuffle. Fighting Style abilities, for example, get lost throughout the entirety of the round. This is on top of the lower damage you are already almost certainly doing on any attacks.
Yes, it has some advantages, absolutely, but there are some fairly significant downsides as well, which is one of the issues it has for being a great dip.
Originally posted by Leugren:
Not to belabor the point, but in exchange for things like certain incompatible Fighting Styles (e.g. Duelist, Great Weapon style, etc.), you gain things like being able to attack with advantage any time you have an ally adjacent to your target (e.g. Dire Wolf Pack Tactics), the ability to knock someone prone any time you hit them thereby granting advantage to all of your allies (Dire Wolf Bite Attack), the ability to gain advantage on perception rolls involving hearing or smell (Dire Wolf Keen Senses), a 50 ft. movement speed (Dire Wolf speed). Personally, I'd say that is more than an even trade off. Furthermore, you can stay in your beast form for 1 hour at 2nd level. Giving up a single bonus action once every hour is a ridiculously small sacrifice, and if for some reason you disagree, you can just shift before the combat starts.
I believe that, once people see a Circle of the Moon Druid in actual play, particularly at low levels, there will be a great public outcry about how "broken" it is.
Originally posted by Jell_Moo:
I'm sorry, I just don't see it. It just screams niche to me. You're right, it has some fun applications, but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule. At low level, it does seem really neat, but the practicality of it wanes pretty quickly. The only builds I can see really work with it are Barbarian and Ranger builds. Everything else just loses out too much to really make the trick work. Compare it to what a single level dip in something like Fighter or Cleric gives you, which becomes applicable to a very wide variety of builds.
I don't think it's bad, I just think that it's very niche.
Originally posted by Bumbaklot:
I think that the wildshape has a pretty strong place for multiclassing spellcasters though.
As Leugren wrote, there is a fairly vast pool of temporary hit points. Above and beyond that, It is my understanding that the spell levels achieved from multiclassing another main spell-casting class into druid stack very well. Not only does the spellcaster gain extra spells from being a druid, that character would also gain higher level slots which he could use.
The temporary hit point pool could be used in a pinch also. It is especially nice once you are higher level overall. When your beast form drops to 0 hp, and you auto-transform out of the shapeshift, you would not be brought to 0 hp in your caster form.
Its a nice reactionary move since its a bonus action, and it can give you some melee versatility when your character might not have any. If I'm reading it right, the player's proficiency bonus gets added if it's higher than the beast's.
<3.
