Light Armour Optimisation--a Little Too Much?

[IcyCool]

The incorporeal folks are a bit less common. and I'm sure you didn't mean literally Blink but if you can actually Blink, you have nothing to fear from Grapplers.

Not sure I understand (as I made no mention of Blink), but to clarify, "Incorporeal touchers" = "Those possessing an incorporeal touch attack (i.e. shadows, and the like)".

This conversation has thus far been interesting, and I'm surprised no one besides Bront has posted here. Maybe they all think that one of us (probably me ) is completely off his rocker. Or maybe they are waiting for us to kill each other so they can loot our corpses.

 

[Rystil Arden]

So I suppose this would be a bad time to bring up Improved Natural Armor, eh?

No, not at all. Unless you allow some sort of noncore race that has no LA or racial HD and Natural Armour, the fact that you can take INA implies that you did something suboptimal (this includes Dragon Disciple) or extremely convoluted.

No, not alot of "One Huge Guy" fights, but a Spring attacking monk walloping the enemy spellcaster with a stunning fist is sure satisfying. And yes, I am assuming that, short of two-weapon rogues, your own full attack is of lower value compared to your opponent's. Most of the critters in the book have a better BAB than you, even if you are a fighter.

If I was that same Monk, I'd rather be flurrying that spellcaster by at least 100%. Plus I could force him to cast on the defensive too.

Yep, but after your flat-footed condition ends, the Touch AC nukes are still plenty useful.

There are other ways to keep your enemy flat-footed. And depending on battle length, that flat-footed condition may indeed be a significant chunk of the fight.

It is important to include, partially for completeness, and partially to get an idea of what the feat will be like for the "general masses". If you are simply trying to balance this feat against Dodge for a character with 24 Dex, Mithral Chain, and LAO, well, you'll note I didn't argue against it being the better choice in that case. How it interacts with the non-extremes is important as well as how it interacts with the extremes. Where we differ, I think, is on whether the extreme "breaks" the feat. I do not think it does. For example, I do not look at Great Fortitude, see that it is significantly better for a class with poor Fort saves than anyone else, and think it is broken. (Overly simplistic analogy, and not intended to construe that you think Great Fortitude is broken).

Yep, the Great Fortitude analogy doesn't work, but I can make one that does that is similar: Fighter's Fortitude feat--instead of a +2 to Fort saves, it makes Fort a Good save for every class you ever take. I would call this a broken feat, even though it isn't broken for Fighters.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Not sure I understand (as I made no mention of Blink), but to clarify, "Incorporeal touchers" = "Those possessing an incorporeal touch attack (i.e. shadows, and the like)".

This conversation has thus far been interesting, and I'm surprised no one besides Bront has posted here. Maybe they all think that one of us (probably me ) is completely off his rocker. Or maybe they are waiting for us to kill each other so they can loot our corpses.

You said 'blink', which probably doesn't mean Blink, but just checking. I do know what you meant by incorporeal touchers, but there are precious few of them, and Death Ward makes you more or less immune to most if you know there's a bunch coming up (plus Death Ward is generally awesome anyways).

I think the 'waiting for us to kill each other' is more likely. As for 'completely off his rocker', even I don't think that either of us is completely off his rocker (though as my poll and particularly KarinDad's comment of 'why do we need this poll--it is obvious' has hopefully shown, the closest either of us comes, IMO, is your claim related to the poll)

 

[IcyCool]

No, not at all. Unless you allow some sort of noncore race that has no LA or racial HD and Natural Armour,

Like the Kobold?

the fact that you can take INA implies that you did something suboptimal (this includes Dragon Disciple) or extremely convoluted.

I've not found Dragon Disciples to be suboptimal, far from it, but YMMV.

If I was that same Monk, I'd rather be flurrying that spellcaster by at least 100%. Plus I could force him to cast on the defensive too.

And his buddies gank you from behind with full attacks. No thanks, I'd rather take my one relatively risk-free attack, even if it means a couple of Aoo (which I've got +4 from mobility against).

There are other ways to keep your enemy flat-footed. And depending on battle length, that flat-footed condition may indeed be a significant chunk of the fight.

I'm actually very curious about this. How do you do this? I thought Invisibility might, but it doesn't (just denies Dex).

Yep, the Great Fortitude analogy doesn't work, but I can make one that does that is similar: Fighter's Fortitude feat--instead of a +2 to Fort saves, it makes Fort a Good save for every class you ever take. I would call this a broken feat, even though it isn't broken for Fighters.

Perhaps we are both missing the mark. My analogy doesn't seem to go far enough for you (+2 to Fort Saves isn't big enough for you to consider broken, so you dismiss it), and your analogy is far enough as to not really make sense to me (the feat is useless for those who have it and aren't the extreme). How about a middle ground, a feat that grants +1 to your Fort Save, and an additional +1 every five levels (+1 at 1st, +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th, etc.)? Is that far enough for you to consider, or does it need to be eye-bulging?

I'll have to wait until tomorrow to discuss this further, gotta get home and make dinner for the wife before she gets home from Aikido. If I don't, I'll be wishing I had Dodge.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Like the Kobold?

Exactly--a highly suboptimal choice if there ever was one. It's fine to buff little Meepo because he'll still be terrible

I've not found Dragon Disciples to be suboptimal, far from it, but YMMV.

They are inferior in the megadamage department to a pure damage-based build that goes full Base Attack, and they don't really have any other shtick that they can do well.

And his buddies gank you from behind with full attacks. No thanks, I'd rather take my one relatively risk-free attack, even if it means a couple of Aoo (which I've got +4 from mobility against).

Well, the Monk has the special secret power that only the Bard also has, which saves him from attacks at least for a while--that is to say, his class sucks so much that the important classes have to go down first (Cleric, then Wizard, then Barbarian/Damage Fighter, then Monk and Bard just before the Turtle).

I'm actually very curious about this. How do you do this? I thought Invisibility might, but it doesn't (just denies Dex).

Grease will do it, as will several other conditions. Invis is sufficient to get Sneak Attacks, though, as is Hide and taking the -20. Feint works too, particularly when you have it faster (though without the right PrC approved, it may not be free actionable).

Perhaps we are both missing the mark. My analogy doesn't seem to go far enough for you (+2 to Fort Saves isn't big enough for you to consider broken, so you dismiss it), and your analogy is far enough as to not really make sense to me (the feat is useless for those who have it and aren't the extreme). How about a middle ground, a feat that grants +1 to your Fort Save, and an additional +1 every five levels (+1 at 1st, +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th, etc.)? Is that far enough for you to consider, or does it need to be eye-bulging?

That one probably takes too long to be equal. How about a feat that gives you a +1 to Fort save per level but is capped at (Level - Base Fort) ? So it gives a Fighter nothing until level 5 and is better for a Wizard than Great Fortitude by level 4. I would call it overpowered compared to Great Fortitude (by the way, there's a reason why I'd rather not bring Toughness and Improved Toughness into this, which is that flat bonuses to a d20 roll scale well and flat HP bonuses scale terribly).

gotta get home and make dinner for the wife before she gets home from Aikido. If I don't, I'll be wishing I had Dodge.

Now I understand! You live with someone who has the Improved Trip feat and she's likely the only one who's going to attack you, not minions--of course you think Dodge is better

 

[IcyCool]

Exactly--a highly suboptimal choice if there ever was one. It's fine to buff little Meepo because he'll still be terrible

That's just because he's a Bard, and not something useful, like a Rogue.

And again with the "suboptimal" talk. Kobold spellcasters and Rogues are quite tasty choices.

At any rate, the main reason I don't try to argue Improved Natural Armor is because I find the arguement that the feats in the MM are not intended for PCs to be valid, and compelling. However, I believe they are allowed for PCs here in LEW. (Mental note, must ask what the LEW ruling on Monks and Improved Natural Attack is).

They are inferior in the megadamage department to a pure damage-based build that goes full Base Attack, and they don't really have any other shtick that they can do well.

Trading one attack at -15 for +4 to damage (+6 with a two-handed sword) on your other three is nothing to sneeze at. But I guess this is yet another difference in opinion.

Well, the Monk has the special secret power that only the Bard also has, which saves him from attacks at least for a while--that is to say, his class sucks so much that the important classes have to go down first (Cleric, then Wizard, then Barbarian/Damage Fighter, then Monk and Bard just before the Turtle).

Well, I've never seen our party meat shields ignore the Monk that was beating on our wizard, but as you pointed out, we play in different games.

Grease will do it, as will several other conditions. Invis is sufficient to get Sneak Attacks, though, as is Hide and taking the -20. Feint works too, particularly when you have it faster (though without the right PrC approved, it may not be free actionable).

I was really curious about extending the flat-footed condition, not sneak attacks in general. Grease potentially has its own issues (is the foe considered 'balancing' while standing in a Greased area, or just moving through?)

That one probably takes too long to be equal. How about a feat that gives you a +1 to Fort save per level but is capped at (Level - Base Fort) ? So it gives a Fighter nothing until level 5 and is better for a Wizard than Great Fortitude by level 4. I would call it overpowered compared to Great Fortitude (by the way, there's a reason why I'd rather not bring Toughness and Improved Toughness into this, which is that flat bonuses to a d20 roll scale well and flat HP bonuses scale terribly).

*chuckle* The feat I proposed becomes "unbalanced" at right around the same time LAO does in Bront's Vanitri example, by the same amount of flat bonus. It also grants its benefit to all people, all of the time. Of course, it then goes on to become even more "unbalanced" after that. But apparently it wasn't extreme or alarming enough. Or perhaps I'm not using analogy properly. At any rate, we aren't really getting anywhere here, are we?

I'll try one more tack, though. This feat does two things, it removes penalties, and potentially increases your armor bonus by +1 point. It doesn't give a dodge bonus, it lessens a penalty.

Now I understand! You live with someone who has the Improved Trip feat and she's likely the only one who's going to attack you, not minions--of course you think Dodge is better

We're shooting for kids by as early as next year. I'm going to want Dodge then, as well. In the land of grapplers, Touch AC is king.

Edit - Fixed my numbers.

 

[Bront]

You are ignoring something. And it is why I think these feats are valid as is. Allow me to insert them:

Touch AC vs 1 target isn't worth as much as better AC vs All targets, Particularly to Melee characters, who are likely to be dodging those close to them, and touch attacks are more likely to be ranged affairs or from casters that are less likely to be dodged.

And a Feat shouldn't be wholely balanced because of the othre feats it gives you access to. It is a factor, but most people would find greater use out of GLAO than Mobility and Spring Attack for the extra armor.

Here's another feat to compair it to. Two Weapon defense. A +1 Shield bonus when wielding 2 weapons. Now, this feat is nice, but it only helps with 2 weapons and you need two weapon fighting. LAO gives you a +1 AC with some light armors while you wear them, but you could be using a bow, sleeping, etc.

Here's another thing. As writen, this feat gives you an AC bonus when completely imobilized! How does your armor optimization work if you can't move? If you're sleeping? You can wear light armor 24/7.

Here's a simpler comparison. LAO also makes studded leather obsolite. Leather, with LAO, has a better max dex bonus, and the same armor bonus. So, Studded leather becomes pointless. Wear leather till Mithril Chain becomes available, and you're gold.

 

[IcyCool]

Touch AC vs 1 target isn't worth as much as better AC vs All targets, Particularly to Melee characters, who are likely to be dodging those close to them, and touch attacks are more likely to be ranged affairs or from casters that are less likely to be dodged.

*shrug* I've always used my dodge bonus against what was most threatening. If no enemy spellcasters are present, it would be placed against the guy in my face. Boosting your Touch AC is difficult. If you take a look at the poll thread, you'll find that some of the people who voted "+1 armor bonus against all is better than +1 dodge bonus against one" have done so because it makes the bookkeeping easier.

And a Feat shouldn't be wholely balanced because of the othre feats it gives you access to. It is a factor, but most people would find greater use out of GLAO than Mobility and Spring Attack for the extra armor.

No, a feat shouldn't be wholely balanced because of the other feats it gives you access to. But neither should that be dismissed out of hand.

Here's another feat to compair it to. Two Weapon defense. A +1 Shield bonus when wielding 2 weapons. Now, this feat is nice, but it only helps with 2 weapons and you need two weapon fighting. LAO gives you a +1 AC with some light armors while you wear them, but you could be using a bow, sleeping, etc.

Good comparison, and good point (look Rystil, a feat that provides a flat bonus and is clearly superior to dodge). Keeping the armor increase while sleeping is certainly an unintended side effect.

Here's a simpler comparison. LAO also makes studded leather obsolite. Leather, with LAO, has a better max dex bonus, and the same armor bonus. So, Studded leather becomes pointless. Wear leather till Mithril Chain becomes available, and you're gold.

So, by taking a feat (let's assume he's a non-human Rogue), he's spent 1/7th of his feat wealth to save less than 1/100,000th of his character wealth? (7 feats by 20th level, 760,000gp by 20th level). Sounds like he got screwed on "Let's Make a Deal". If he gets himself to a 24 Dex, the deal is better. But he's going for Mithril Chain, which makes every other light armor obsolete anyway, so whats the issue here anyway? Masterwork Studded Leather makes Leather Armor obsolete, too. At least, according to the assertion put forth earlier that having a lower Max Dex makes an armor superior (provided the difference between the higher max dex armor + its armor bonus and the lower max dex armor + its armor bonus is zero).

Btw, I appreciate the discussion from both you and Rystil.

 

[Rystil Arden]

By the way, is 43/46 (and one of the other 3 being you) plus comments to the effect of "this is no contest, so why did you even bother with this poll" enough of a majority to prove my point when I said I was utterly shocked to realise that you thought they were even near equal and that I had never encountered that perspective before?

 

[Rystil Arden]

Good comparison, and good point (look Rystil, a feat that provides a flat bonus and is clearly superior to dodge). Keeping the armor increase while sleeping is certainly an unintended side effect.

With TWD, you need to remember that you are voluntarily giving up on carrying a shield or using a two-handed weapon. For AC monkeys, the shield is better, and for everyone else the two-handed weapon is better. Plus there are other feat requirements (and since everyone except Wizard, Sorc, and Psion get LAP automatically, I don't consider that a feat requirement for LAO) of TWF to get into the chain and then continual other TWF feats (ITWF and GTWF) to keep your damage potential even remotely close to the two-handed weapon.