Light Armour Optimisation--a Little Too Much?

[IcyCool]

By the way, is 43/46 (and one of the other 3 being you) plus comments to the effect of "this is no contest, so why did you even bother with this poll" enough of a majority to prove my point when I said I was utterly shocked to realise that you thought they were even near equal and that I had never encountered that perspective before?

I never doubted that you were shocked. But with the one concern I did voice, and comments to the effect of "I only voted option 2 because it's easier bookkeeping", I'm not sure you've proven any point.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I never doubted that you were shocked. But with the one concern I did voice, and comments to the effect of "I only voted option 2 because it's easier bookkeeping", I'm not sure you've proven any point.

The bookkeeping people were by far in the minority. If you just look at the comments of the people in the thread, you'll see that it is clear--if you play in a game where Dodge is better, you are far and away in the minority to the point where it shouldn't be what we balance around.

I probably worded my post above badly--what I mean to say is, I know that an argument like "I've never heard of anyone who has ever agreed with you and I've talked to a lot of people" is terribly imprecise and circumstantial at best, and it can be claimed by both sides. I hope the poll has shown that I at least made that comment in good faith.

 

[IcyCool]

With TWD, you need to remember that you are voluntarily giving up on carrying a shield or using a two-handed weapon.

Which, if you are a two weapon fighter, you were going to do anyway.

For AC monkeys, the shield is better, and for everyone else the two-handed weapon is better.

Except two-weapon fighting Rogues, and possibly two-weapon style Rangers.

Plus there are other feat requirements (and since everyone except Wizard, Sorc, and Psion get LAP automatically, I don't consider that a feat requirement for LAO)

No, of course you don't. Look, you've presented your arguements, and I've presented mine. You continually overlook or ignore certain things in an effort to prove your point. You aren't the only person in LEW who wants to see the feat changed (Bront made mention of it too). There is a mechanism in place for changing it.

The solution seems clear.

I don't think either of us will convince the other. And I've gotten tired of butting heads at this point (the discussion up until now has been good, though). The armor optimization feats were proposed a while ago, got some discussion, a good look, and were voted in. Since that time, to my knowledge, no one has taken them. Maybe nobody knew they were there and I'm the only person who reads our rules and mechanics thread. Or maybe the feats aren't as good as you claim. Either way, you have an issue with them now, and I'm not going to be able to convince you otherwise. I urge you to start your proposal thread to change these feats, and get feedback from the LEW community. If you would like, I won't comment in it, but if that is the case I'd ask that you provide a link to this thread in the proposal thread.

 

[Bront]

*shrug* I've always used my dodge bonus against what was most threatening. If no enemy spellcasters are present, it would be placed against the guy in my face. Boosting your Touch AC is difficult. If you take a look at the poll thread, you'll find that some of the people who voted "+1 armor bonus against all is better than +1 dodge bonus against one" have done so because it makes the bookkeeping easier.

Boosting touch AC is just as difficult as normal AC, and what about flatfooted AC? Isn't that important too? And the dificulty is dismissing the argument. I have dodge on several characters, and I hate it. I never use it against the right person (because when you're in melee against 3 people, you have a 1 in 60 chance of picking the right person, AND it matering) and it rarely seems to matter. And I have to keep assigning it, which is admittedly a pain (though realy isn't an issue on the power itself, just stuff to keep track off, so I don't count it against the feat). I'd much rather have +1 AC vs all 3.

No, a feat shouldn't be wholely balanced because of the other feats it gives you access to. But neither should that be dismissed out of hand.

You seem to be lauding it regularly. I've not dismissed it, but I don't think it's a very big issue with this feat. Mobility is very useful to some builds, Spring Attack much less so.

Good comparison, and good point (look Rystil, a feat that provides a flat bonus and is clearly superior to dodge). Keeping the armor increase while sleeping is certainly an unintended side effect.

Actualy, you missed the point there. It's a situational +1 modifier that replaces a shield (which in most cases is better because you can enchant it, or even just get a bigger one) (and both other feats let you use a shield or this feat with them), AND it costs a feat to do. And you won't always have 2 weapons wielded. Armor, on the other hand, isn't something that you have sometimes, and don't other times. Particularly light armor. My heavy armored characters usually carry around light armor to sleep in, but a light armored character can sleep in their armor without a feat.

So, by taking a feat (let's assume he's a non-human Rogue), he's spent 1/7th of his feat wealth to save less than 1/100,000th of his character wealth? (7 feats by 20th level, 760,000gp by 20th level). Sounds like he got screwed on "Let's Make a Deal". If he gets himself to a 24 Dex, the deal is better. But he's going for Mithril Chain, which makes every other light armor obsolete anyway, so whats the issue here anyway? Masterwork Studded Leather makes Leather Armor obsolete, too. At least, according to the assertion put forth earlier that having a lower Max Dex makes an armor superior (provided the difference between the higher max dex armor + its armor bonus and the lower max dex armor + its armor bonus is zero).

The studded leather example is of limited scale of influence, but it does mean at 1st level (when the extra 15 gold, and 5 lbs could matter) you're about 10% ahead of the game. Mithril Breastplate vs Mithril Chain Shirt is a better example (3000 gold difference in price), but you already dismissed that one earlier. It also means, as a result, Light Armor Optimization is inherantly better than Medium Armor Optimization.

Btw, I appreciate the discussion from both you and Rystil.

Glad to help

 

[Rystil Arden]

You continually overlook or ignore certain things in an effort to prove your point.

I think I don't--I'm looking at them directly and not agreeing with you on them. That is a very different thing. Other than that, I agree with your sentiment in that post.

 

[IcyCool]

It's a sick man who continues to post in a thread after he says he's done with it.

So I must be a sick man.

I'd like to apologize for the tone of some of my posts yesterday. They were unnecessarily aggressive.

The bookkeeping people were by far in the minority. If you just look at the comments of the people in the thread, you'll see that it is clear--if you play in a game where Dodge is better, you are far and away in the minority to the point where it shouldn't be what we balance around.

I was one of 3 (out of 51) who didn't vote with you. You'll note also, that some of the people who voted with you did so not because they thought dodge wasn't better, but because they didn't like the bookkeeping aspect of it.

I probably worded my post above badly--what I mean to say is, I know that an argument like "I've never heard of anyone who has ever agreed with you and I've talked to a lot of people" is terribly imprecise and circumstantial at best, and it can be claimed by both sides. I hope the poll has shown that I at least made that comment in good faith.

I didn't say you didn't make the comment in good faith, I made mine in good faith as well. And you are correct that the stated arguement works for either side, which is why I said the poll would be "fun", nothing more.

Boosting touch AC is just as difficult as normal AC, and what about flatfooted AC? Isn't that important too?

Touch AC = Deflection (Ring of protection +5 is king here), Dexterity, and Dodge.

Normal AC = Armor, Armor Enhancement, Shield, Shield Enhancement, Natural Armor (and its enhancement), all that plus the things that make up Touch AC.

When I said that boosting touch AC was more difficult, I was basing that off touch AC boosts being smaller and fewer. By all means, prove me wrong (but do be sure that what you are using is available in LEW).

And the dificulty is dismissing the argument.

I am unsure what you mean here. If you think I have dismissed something, then please let me know so that I can address it.

You seem to be lauding it regularly.

Repeatedly mentioning it and assigning a value to it is not "lauding it regularly".

I've not dismissed it, but I don't think it's a very big issue with this feat.

So if you are not dismissing it, then what sort of value are you assigning it? Does it count for anything?

Actualy, you missed the point there. It's a situational +1 modifier that replaces a shield (which in most cases is better because you can enchant it, or even just get a bigger one) (and both other feats let you use a shield or this feat with them), AND it costs a feat to do.

That comment was in reference to Rystil's comment:

I would have thought it obvious that if you took Light Armour Optimisation, then you aren't someone who doesn't wear any armour.

Armor, on the other hand, isn't something that you have sometimes, and don't other times. Particularly light armor. My heavy armored characters usually carry around light armor to sleep in, but a light armored character can sleep in their armor without a feat.

So, because your characters carry around an extra set of light armor, that means that armor isn't something that you have sometimes, but not other times? What about when you are changing from one armor to another? There are times when a character won't be wearing armor. Granted, those times are fewer than the times a character with TWD won't be wielding two weapons.

Mithril Breastplate vs Mithril Chain Shirt is a better example (3000 gold difference in price), but you already dismissed that one earlier.

I did?

It also means, as a result, Light Armor Optimization is inherantly better than Medium Armor Optimization.

Could you please explain how?

 

[Bront]

First of all, please, if you quote something, keep the whole quote. Otherwise it takes it out of context and I have to search back to find out what I was saying, which makes it not only hard to argue, but, to me, makes it look like you are attempting to discredit my arguement by picking apart things out of context.

Touch AC = Deflection (Ring of protection +5 is king here), Dexterity, and Dodge.

Normal AC = Armor, Armor Enhancement, Shield, Shield Enhancement, Natural Armor (and its enhancement), all that plus the things that make up Touch AC.

When I said that boosting touch AC was more difficult, I was basing that off touch AC boosts being smaller and fewer. By all means, prove me wrong (but do be sure that what you are using is available in LEW).

There are force effects that increase your touch AC, or at least are effective against some touch attacks.

The problem is, you're taking +1 normal and touch AC vs 1 opponent of your choice (that you are aware of) compaired to +1 normal AC (but not touch) all the time. You have assigned a very high value to touch AC, and while it's nice, it's the 1 vs many opponents that is at issue here. I think your assignment of that is realy too high, but EVEN if I were to say that these 2 abilities are even (And they're not), that you get the rest of the benifits of the feat make it unbalanced.

I am unsure what you mean here. If you think I have dismissed something, then please let me know so that I can address it.

You dismiss the +1 normal AC because it's easier to get. That makes it no less useful. If you aren't dismissing it, then it I am misunderstanding you, but you seem to waive it off fairly easily.

Repeatedly mentioning it and assigning a value to it is not "lauding it regularly".

So if you are not dismissing it, then what sort of value are you assigning it? Does it count for anything?

It's progression has minemal value. Honestly, most people take the feat as an entrance into a prestiege class.

That comment was in reference to Rystil's comment:

Yes, but you quoted me, and you didn't address my comments about it, so i felt I had to explain a bit more. Comparing LAO to 2 Weapon Defense, LAO is significantly better because the AC bonus comes into use more often, AND it gives you more.

So, because your characters carry around an extra set of light armor, that means that armor isn't something that you have sometimes, but not other times? What about when you are changing from one armor to another? There are times when a character won't be wearing armor. Granted, those times are fewer than the times a character with TWD won't be wielding two weapons.

I did?

Yes, it was brought up by Rystil in the Mithril Chain over Mithril Breast Plate. It was on the first page, and one of the first arguements.

Could you please explain how?

Only light will ever allow an armor to actualy gain +1 AC, because the restrictions on heavier armors won't go low enough to get that AC bost over the ACP drop. Also, LAO effects mithril medium armors, so it gives you some added flexibility. MAO effects Medium and Mithril Heavy armors, meaning it's a bit better than HAO (since some of the more desired armors are mithril to reduced ACPs and weight, so it doesn't effect some armors).

Edit: Apparently there is no Heavy Armor Optimization feat. Also, A standard dwarf barbarian in medium armor still moves at speed 30, as the bonus happens after armor.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Only light will ever allow an armor to actualy gain +1 AC, because the restrictions on heavier armors won't go low enough to get that AC bost over the ACP drop. Also, LAO effects mithril medium armors, so it gives you some added flexibility. MAO effects Medium and Mithril Heavy armors, meaning it's a bit better than HAO (since some of the more desired armors are mithril to reduced ACPs and weight, so it doesn't effect some armors).

Yep. It's pretty simple, really. The 1000 GP Mithral Chain Shirt will give you +6 AC +8! Max Dex (possible total 14) and no ACP with LAO and GLAO. The 10,000 GP Mithral Full Plate will give you +8 AC +3 Max Dex (possible total 11) with -1 ACP with MAO and GMAO. And remember that before the feats, the Full Plate still gave up to 11 and the Chain Shirt gave up to 10, so you've swung around advantage 1 for the expensive option into advantage 3 for the inexpensive one. Plus of course the MCS has much more possibility for bonuses to Touch AC.

 

[Erekose13]

While I hesitate to butt in on this arguement, I will say that I agree with Bront and RA that LAO is more powerful than Dodge. That being said, I've always found Dodge to be a substandard feat that leads to not only good trees but generally good PrCs. No that is not a way to balance a feat, but it has been said that on a scale some feats must occupy the bottom rung. To me Dodge has always belonged there with Skill Focus.

So I do not feel that LAO is unbalanced to the degree that you are arguing, at least not in LEW. In any case I'm always open to reviewing a feat again at a later point (like this) and if it does become highly suspect and unbalancing on a number of characters I'd suggest modifying it at that time. At this point I think we are jumping the gun.

 

[Rystil Arden]

What's interesting, actually, from going back to the thread, is that LAO was voted in with almost no discussion. There was a bit of discussion on MAO, and then the judges kind of just quickly voted yes.

I think the problem is twofold: First, it is not only stronger than Dodge, it is too much stronger than Dodge. It has the potential for an all-the-time +2 AC boost. Second, it makes the careful pricing and balance between armours become meaningless and unusual (MBP becomes worse than MCS for more money, thus utterly obsolete. Studded Leather becomes worse than Leather as well in the same way.)