Light Armour Optimisation--a Little Too Much?

[Erekose13]

To me the dex bonus is as you pointed out earlier going to be very rare in LEW. I haven't checked yet, but I'd be very surprised to find someone with a 20 Dex in our list of characters. Second, it does throw off the balancing of armors, at the cost of a feat. Which in my books is cost enough (as IcyCool pointed out).

 

[Rystil Arden]

To me the dex bonus is as you pointed out earlier going to be very rare in LEW. I haven't checked yet, but I'd be very surprised to find someone with a 20 Dex in our list of characters. Second, it does throw off the balancing of armors, at the cost of a feat. Which in my books is cost enough (as IcyCool pointed out).

With respect to the balance in armours, it's more that the mechanics are wonky than anything else--you won't see something like that come out of the core rules or splatbooks. Frankly, just flat giving +1 AC +1 Max Dex would be better than the current rules in that sense, though admittedly stronger for Studded Leather, nonmithral Chain Shirt, and MBP wearers.

Actually, since the Dex Bonus breaks the feat if it happens and should be rare anyway, it won't hurt anyone except the abusers if the feat was changed to a flat +1 to armour bonus to AC -1 ACP. That would be better in a tremendous way.

 

[Erekose13]

True, but it doesn't mean that we will have any trouble with it here. I like the ACP thing, but IcyCool was right when he wrote these, Light armours wont benefit from it very much. I think that his caveat fits.

 

[Rystil Arden]

True, but it doesn't mean that we will have any trouble with it here. I like the ACP thing, but IcyCool was right when he wrote these, Light armours wont benefit from it very much. I think that his caveat fits.

Why not just give +1 AC and -1 ACP regardless of which light armour is picked? This is still significantly better than Dodge even if the ACP doesn't do anything, and since the Max Dex is meaningless except to someone planning to break the feat, it won't hurt anyone else at all. This fixes the edge effect and leaves Studded Leather and MBP as good choices and stops the biggest abuse.

 

[Erekose13]

That would work for me.

 

[Velmont]

Why not just give +1 AC and -1 ACP regardless of which light armour is picked? This is still significantly better than Dodge even if the ACP doesn't do anything, and since the Max Dex is meaningless except to someone planning to break the feat, it won't hurt anyone else at all. This fixes the edge effect and leaves Studded Leather and MBP as good choices and stops the biggest abuse.

That sound fine to me too.

I must tell I was finding that LAO was more powerfull than dodge, mainly because the AC bonus apply to all, not to only one (in many game, I've seen dodge apply to all, easier bookeeping, and similar to the monster feat +1 to natural armor) and there was other bonus over that, but makin a feat that gives +1 Max Dex and -1 ACP was pretty weak for light armor (and would be much stronger on Heavy Armor).

+1 AC and -1 ACP seems fine. Stronger than dodge, but as Erekose13 told, dodge is a bit weak for a feat, but is a pre-requisit to many interesting things.

 

[Bront]

I would agree with that change.

Bear in mind here, that with LAO, if it stays as is, Vanitri (who is getting his 6th level feat once I figure out if anyone's following him) is leaning towards it, because of the AC boost and chance to break it later. He's become much heavier into Melee than I had thought he might, and it makes a bit of a difference, so it's between that and Leadership.

 

[Velmont]

I would agree with that change.

Bear in mind here, that with LAO, if it stays as is, Vanitri (who is getting his 6th level feat once I figure out if anyone's following him) is leaning towards it, because of the AC boost and chance to break it later. He's become much heavier into Melee than I had thought he might, and it makes a bit of a difference, so it's between that and Leadership.

Wow, by curiosity, I've been looking at Vanitri... that neckalce you haev, nice magical item... and it surely make you one, if not THE richer character of LEW, as it worth 20k. Rinaldo is jealous.

 

[Erekose13]

Tenebrynn will be taking this feat too as a lead in to my proposed Armored Caster feat.

 

[IcyCool]

First of all, please, if you quote something, keep the whole quote. Otherwise it takes it out of context and I have to search back to find out what I was saying, which makes it not only hard to argue, but, to me, makes it look like you are attempting to discredit my arguement by picking apart things out of context.

My apologies. There were several items in your statements that I wanted to address individually, and it made the most sense to quote the item, and then address it. In the future, would you prefer me to quote full paragraphs, or the entire post? I ask because I don't think I've ever been accused of that behavior before.

I'm sorry you feel that I'm picking your arguements apart out of context. Please show me where I did that, and I will go back in my post and "fully quote" the arguement.

If I havent' picked apart one of your arguements out of context, then I'm not sure why you bring this up?

There are force effects that increase your touch AC, or at least are effective against some touch attacks.

As a force effect, Mage armor is effective against incorporeal touch attacks, yes. Are there others? (To my knowledge, Bracers of Armor don't).

The problem is, you're taking +1 normal and touch AC vs 1 opponent of your choice (that you are aware of) compaired to +1 normal AC (but not touch) all the time. You have assigned a very high value to touch AC, and while it's nice, it's the 1 vs many opponents that is at issue here. I think your assignment of that is realy too high, but EVEN if I were to say that these 2 abilities are even (And they're not), that you get the rest of the benifits of the feat make it unbalanced.

And therein lies the rub, doesn't it? I think +1 Dodge against all opponents vs. +1 armor against all opponents is superior, and the restrictions of the Dodge feat (+1 Dodge against one opponent) brings that down to equal footing with +1 armor against all. I also think that because Dodge is also a beneficial feat chain entry feat, that puts it on roughly equal footing with LAO.

You dismiss the +1 normal AC because it's easier to get. That makes it no less useful. If you aren't dismissing it, then it I am misunderstanding you, but you seem to waive it off fairly easily.

On the contrary, I have state that I find +1 normal AC to be roughly equivalent to +1 Dodge vs. a single target. I'm equating dismissal with assigning no value, so saying +1 normal AC has no value would be the same as dismissing it (much like you and Rystil seemed to have done with the feat chain entry part of the Dodge feat, you claim that it does have some value below).

It's progression has minemal value. Honestly, most people take the feat as an entrance into a prestiege class.

I haven't really considered entry into a prestige class. There appears, however, to be precedent for the value of a feat being altered based on its being in a feat chain. That's why I've included it in my arguement.

I should also point out (again) that a number of the factors being debated here are subjective (that's why we value them differently), and perhaps that's the reason for all of the incredulity flying about the thread. I'm hoping that I'm not ruffling feathers here.

Yes, but you quoted me, and you didn't address my comments about it, so i felt I had to explain a bit more. Comparing LAO to 2 Weapon Defense, LAO is significantly better because the AC bonus comes into use more often, AND it gives you more.

You guys are reading what I'm writing, aren't you? I can make my responses shorter and to the point if I'm rambling. I'm serious on this, you two are both very astute posters, and for you to miss or misread this often is rare. I'm fluent in gibberish (I have to be, my wife speaks it on occaision) , so perhaps that is coming through here (or maybe I'm remembering writing something and I haven't). I'd like to know how I can better communicate my points to you, so any help you can provide would be good.

At any rate, I'll repeat, just to make sure I've gotten it out there. I would agree that LAO is better (marginally) than 2 Weapon Defense for a two weapon wielder, and I believe that I addressed this in my previous post with quote below (the last two sentences of it anyway). And, as I have consistently stated, it is flatly better than Dodge if the character has a 24 Dex or higher. (Note: It isn't Dodge, but better, as Dodge still does something that LAO does not.)

So, because your characters carry around an extra set of light armor, that means that armor isn't something that you have sometimes, but not other times? What about when you are changing from one armor to another? There are times when a character won't be wearing armor. Granted, those times are fewer than the times a character with TWD won't be wielding two weapons.

Yes, it was brought up by Rystil in the Mithril Chain over Mithril Breast Plate. It was on the first page, and one of the first arguements.

I think that if you read back over my responses to Rystil, you'll find that I did address that. I can go back and find the exact quote, if you prefer.

Only light will ever allow an armor to actualy gain +1 AC, because the restrictions on heavier armors won't go low enough to get that AC bost over the ACP drop. Also, LAO effects mithril medium armors, so it gives you some added flexibility. MAO effects Medium and Mithril Heavy armors, meaning it's a bit better than HAO (since some of the more desired armors are mithril to reduced ACPs and weight, so it doesn't effect some armors).

Edit: Apparently there is no Heavy Armor Optimization feat. Also, A standard dwarf barbarian in medium armor still moves at speed 30, as the bonus happens after armor.

Am I the only one with the opinion that not everyone takes Mithril armors? Rystil makes the claim that these people don't care about thier AC, you aren't making the same claim, are you?

No, there is no Heavy Armor Optimization feat (I didn't include them because I wasn't sure if Races of Stone would become available at some point). The speed issue was brought up about a month or two after the feats were approved, and no one appeared to care enough to change it, so it has remained in error.