Living Supers - General Discussion Thread

[Master Pelle]

I can say that if somebody only spending Accurate PF on powers than spending BA, they will be real in trouble if somebody use Nullify powers on them because they will completly lose the combat ability and they will be real easy target.

 

[VioletSamurai]

Just a few feeble attempts at self-defense:

1) I didn't envision Masako as having any formal combat training, so it made sense to me for her attack bonus to be wrapped up in her powers, rather than a "free-floating" attack bonus that would allow her to pick up a weapon and know more than "hole/sharp end goes towards the bad guy."

2) I don't personally think it's a big deal to have a bunch of feats in alternate powers when it's mostly the same feats repeated in each one (they are, after all, just different uses of the same power - the premise behind Alternate Powers). Frankly, since they are Alternate Powers (not even Dynamic ones, at that), and thus, cannot be used at the same time, I'm not sure I understand exactly what the problem is with stacking a few bells and whistles on where points and concept both allow.

3) This is just one of my personal idiosyncrasies: My tastes in comic book superheroes tend to gravitate towards characters that are some sort of hybrid of two (or more) of the "standard" archetypes laid out in the M&M core book. So whenever I try to stat up a concept I find interesting, I run out of points very quickly. I have never had the problem of having more points than I know what to do with for an M&M character. In a standard PL10/PP150 game, I usually have to stretch points unbelievably thin to make my idea work. I'll start out with a design for a fairly well-rounded character, but when I add up the numbers, I find that areas I originally intended to have a passing familiarity in quickly become luxuries I simply cannot afford. In order to be exceptionally competent in the couple of areas I choose to specialize in, I wind up having to be practically ignorant of all others. And unless it's vital to the particular concept, I see no point in wasting points on traits I'll either never use or never succeed at. My RPG philosophy tends towards specialty - if you can't do it well, don't bother trying.

I'll agree that the build is efficient, but I ask you to take my word for it that it's the desperate, backed-into-a-corner flavor of efficient, not the I-want-to-be-uber variety. In fact, I specifically built the character to have several glaring weaknesses that an intelligent enemy could exploit. Her Fortitude and Reflex saves are sub-par (I put in just enough points to give her a fighting chance, but they're still weak). Her Defense is completely Dodge-based (a mechanical-philosophy preference on my part - I feel that the Base Defense mechanic is poorly-defined), and she doesn't have the usual backup measures of Uncanny Dodge and a high Sense Motive, so catching her flat-footed is very possible, and will cripple her. She will lose grapples, period. And aside from metal-based attacks, there's nothing special about her Toughness save - it's just a standard PL10, and it's derived completely from a Sustained power - if she gets stunned and loses her Concentration, it drops, and then she's toast.

That having been said, I'm not too attached to the minute details - if I need to shuffle around a few points here and there, swap out some feats, etc., that's fine with me - I have several alternate designs still banging around in my indecision-prone head, so I'd just switch to one of those. I even have a couple of totally seperate alternate characters waiting in the wings, if it comes to that. I certainly never intended or wanted to cause contraversy. More than anything, I'm just eager to start playing.

 

[VioletSamurai]

I can say that if somebody only spending Accurate PF on powers than spending BA, they will be real in trouble if somebody use Nullify powers on them because they will completly lose the combat ability and they will be real easy target.

Correct. That is, in fact, my intent.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Yeah, I agree with you VS--I also had to stretch points incredibly thin to get my concept across, all because of one amazingly expensive signature power (I could have broken it up into a physical transform with a mental transform alternate and gotten more effect for a much lower price, but my concept required the Men to Beasts power to be as it is). Sierra started out with much better saves, a little bit of base defense, some other immunities and utility powers, etc, but slowly all those other things had to go away. That said, I never paid for her to have base attack--she doesn't get her hands dirty and has no idea how to use a weapon. If you can get past her attacks and misdirections, Sierra is supposed to be a trifle in combat (although I wish I had been able to keep her extremely-short-range Teleport power to help escape--I'll probably add that on if I ever get any etxra PP).

It is very easy to screw over someone who just has Accurate on their attack powers--I'd say since we were willing to give the much more dangerous Boost power on Body&Spirit a shot, why not give Quasar a shot too? I was pondering Sierra's weaknesses myself when I built her, so if I was Quasar's GM, I know exactly how to make a player feel the loss of those extra 15 points

 

[hero4hire]

Just a few feeble attempts at self-defense:

.

In no way shape or form should you feel attacked.

I definitely can see the character is not without its weaknesses. But the same design philosophy can be abused.

What the judges are currently discussing (though slowly due to the Holidays) is at what point that kind of design is abusive.

It is relatively easy to pile in a bunch of feats into Alternate Powers, the jury is out still on what exactly is "too much", I'd like to at least have a guideline in the approval process.

LS is still a growing game, so these things will come up and usually are only discussed when some clever player brings them to our attention.

I am truly sorry this has delayed you in getting to play.

 

[Rystil Arden]

In no way shape or form should you feel attacked.

I definitely can see the character is not without its weaknesses. But the same design philosophy can be abused.

What the judges are currently discussing (though slowly due to the Holidays) is at what point that kind of design is abusive.

It is relatively easy to pile in a bunch of feats into Alternate Powers, the jury is out still on what exactly is "too much", I'd like to at least have a guideline in the approval process.

LS is still a growing game, so these things will come up and usually are only discussed when some clever player brings them to our attention.

I am truly sorry this has delayed you in getting to play.

I see what you're saying also h4h--I think that basically all the feats listed as power feats in the core M&M book are fair game for putting into alternate powers because you still have the opportunity cost of one alt power per round and none of them is particularly game-breaking in an alt power. The scary and dangerous part comes if we allow your proposal to lump in regular feats as part of powers. Then you wind up with things like an alternate power with 10x Improved Critical so that if it hits, it will be a crit (this is one of the workarounds I mentioned earlier to trade off damage cap but not really pay for it).

This is, of course, only my personal opinion though.

 

[VioletSamurai]

I agree that, under most circumstances, anything above about 4 ranks in Improved Critical is ridiculous.

With how fast-and-loose Kenson plays it with his character write-ups, I didn't realize that you couldn't take "normal" Feats as Power Feats, or vice versa, under the standard rules.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I agree that, under most circumstances, anything above about 4 ranks in Improved Critical is ridiculous.

With how fast-and-loose Kenson plays it with his character write-ups, I didn't realize that you couldn't take "normal" Feats as Power Feats, or vice versa, under the standard rules.

Yeah, I had a player make a character for my game who made a five-point attack trade-off but counteracted it with enough ranks in Improved Critical to crit on a 10 (which was especially good when he was allowed to take 10 against minions). I think he had another attack that was also double Autofire (which if you can afford it, and admittedly it is pricy, makes the tradeoff into a totally beneficial deal for you: If you would have hit without the trade-off, you deal damage as if the trade-off didn't happen, and if you roll lower and only hit because of the trade-off, then the fact that it is only for lower damage isn't a problem because normally you wouldn't have hit at all)

The normal feats as power feats / normal feats as powers rule is a pretty obvious extension that is mentioned officially in Ultimate Power, although it does leave more room for abuse.

Still, it allows some cool combos and neat things as well--if that's ever allowed, I absolutely want to spend one more point to have Sierra's Fascinate feat be a move action--then she can just keep talking and talking and have both Bewitch and Fascinate going on--the Bewitch save DC is pretty crummy, but the Fascinate DC is much higher, so if they're stuck there listening to her talk, eventually, they'll fail a Fascinate save Of course, Fascinate is unnecessary if they're somewhere where they have to listen to her talk anyway

 

[Bront]

Yeah, I had a player make a character for my game who made a five-point attack trade-off but counteracted it with enough ranks in Improved Critical to crit on a 10 (which was especially good when he was allowed to take 10 against minions). I think he had another attack that was also double Autofire (which if you can afford it, and admittedly it is pricy, makes the tradeoff into a totally beneficial deal for you: If you would have hit without the trade-off, you deal damage as if the trade-off didn't happen, and if you roll lower and only hit because of the trade-off, then the fact that it is only for lower damage isn't a problem because normally you wouldn't have hit at all)

The normal feats as power feats / normal feats as powers rule is a pretty obvious extension that is mentioned officially in Ultimate Power, although it does leave more room for abuse.

Still, it allows some cool combos and neat things as well--if that's ever allowed, I absolutely want to spend one more point to have Sierra's Fascinate feat be a move action--then she can just keep talking and talking and have both Bewitch and Fascinate going on--the Bewitch save DC is pretty crummy, but the Fascinate DC is much higher, so if they're stuck there listening to her talk, eventually, they'll fail a Fascinate save Of course, Fascinate is unnecessary if they're somewhere where they have to listen to her talk anyway

Double Autofire? I didn't think that was allowable.

I personaly wouldn't allow anyone to crit on a take X result. The only M&M example of an autogenerated number is Probability control, and that can cancel out a critical failure, but will not create a critical hit, as stated in the power.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Sure it is--read the Autofire description: If you pay double, you get +1 to Damage for every 1 that you beat their defense.