Lizardfolk = ECL 4?!?!

[SpikeyFreak]

Re: Slower progression

I guess you guys haven't seen the recommended slower experience progression rules for "super-powerful" PC's using monsters as characters. You gain levels normally, but at the cost as if you were at your ECL. That will slow down people wanting them a lot...

Isn't that the whole point of ECLs?

What am I missing?

--Confused Spikey

 

[Wolfspider]

Edit: actually, after checking the template, the SRD actually says: "Hit Dice: Increase by one die type, to a maximum of d12" - so even if you got the bonus to your levels, it's a whopping +1 hp/level and not the monstrosity that you suggest.

Hmmm...the Monster Manual says otherwise, although I probably should have checked errata. According to the examples given in the D&D Fight Club, the Hit Dice of half-dragons is increased by one step (from d4 to d6, for example).

OK...so remove the d12 hit dice from my argument. It doesn't really matter. Are the two creatures-- the lizardfolk and the half-dragon --still balanced? The half-dragon gets a net +14 to stats, including a hefty +8 to Strength, the lizardfolk a net of +2. The lizardfolk beats the half-dragon's natural armor by one point, but the half-dragon does more damage with unarmed attacks, may have wings, and has a nasty breath weapon. The half-dragon gets darkvision AND lowlight vision, and some magical and elemental immunities. Sure, the lizardfolk gets some bonuses to some skills, like Swimming and Jumping, I'll grant you that. But the half-dragon template gains all of its abilities IN ADDITION to the ones granted by the base creature. So an elf or gnome or dwarf half-dragon will have a ton of abilities as compared with the poor abused lizardfolk.

I still maintain that they are not equal in power and that the lizardfolk should be ECL 2. I welcome your comments on this.

 

[SpikeyFreak]

The +2d8 hit dice will make a big difference at low level, and the race has darkvision and +2 str and +2 con.

A 1st level barbarian lizard man would be more powerful than a 3rd level human barbarian. They would have almost the same HP(21 vs 24), the same number of feats, and the lizard man has a higher str and a MUCH better AC. Not to mention natural attacks and darkvision. The only advantage the lvl 3 barbarian has is uncanny dodge. And at higher level the difference will be even greater.

I agree that ECL +4 is too high, but if they get the +2d8 hit points and an extra feat, ECL +2 is too low.

--Chameleon Spikey

 

[Wolfspider]

So I guess there's nowhere to go but ECL 3, eh Spikey?

I don't know about your comparison. Sure the lizardman barb will have better AC and natural attacks, but you forgot to mention that the 3rd level barb will have racial abilities too. An extra feat and lots of skill points if human, attribute modifiers and other abilites if not.

And at higher level the difference will be even greater.

Again, I disagree. At higher levels the loss of two class levels will be really painful. I know it has been such for my lizardfolk druid. He's lost an entire level of spells because of his ECL 2. The natural attacks are only good if he becomes disarmed somehow, and even then they don't fare very well against creatures with damage reduction. To be honest, the +5 natural armor is the most powerful of his racial abilities. I'll admit its a powerful ability...but he sacrificed a lot for it. Druidic special abilities, spells, saving throws. It's definitely something to consider when coming up with an ECL.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Also keep in mind that ECLs are based off the race's best class fit. Example:

Darkmantles should be ECL +0 or ECL -1. A darkmantle wizard can fly and has an amazing +6 to natural armor, but can only cast cantrips until level 4 due to its -8 Int penalty. A darkmantle Wiz5 (Int 11, 18 base -8 racial +1 level) can cast an Empowered magic missile for about 15 points of damage and has 5 more hit points than a comparable human wizard, but the human wizard can cast a lightning bolt to fry the darkmantle.

This is an absurd argument (humorously so!), but it does show the main point well - lizardfolk don't make very good druids, like half-orcs don't make good sorcerers.

 

[Wolfspider]

Also keep in mind that ECLs are based off the race's best class fit.

I guess that means that they should change the lizardfolk's preferred class from druid to barbarian or something....

Seriously...where does it say that ECLs are based off of a race's "best fit"? I mean, should ECL measure a creature's OVERALL power level?

lizardfolk don't make very good druids

Hsssss. Sedek doessss not like you, no he doessssn't. His pet dire crocodile isss going to come and play with you, yesssss.

 

[milo]

My idea

Just get rid of the two HD the lizardfolk starts with and just add regular class levels. Give it an ECL of +1 or +2. I don't know how well this will work and expect everyone to tear my idea apart, but I don't really care.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: My idea

Just get rid of the two HD the lizardfolk starts with and make it a template.

Ooh... is it a humanoid-only template? Or can I have a lizardfolk warhorse?

-Hyp.

 

[milo]

It doesn't matter what the books say, those are just a basis for your game, the DM could change the ECL if he wants to. If he wants to make it an ECL of +6 to discourage anyone from taking it as a character he can, or if he wants to change it to a +1 he can do that to.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I guess that means that they should change the lizardfolk's preferred class from druid to barbarian or something....

Seriously...where does it say that ECLs are based off of a race's "best fit"? I mean, should ECL measure a creature's OVERALL power level?

It doesn't, but look at the half-orc... surely not balanced as an ECL +0 race as a sorcerer; it's certainly not as good as elven sorcerers, let alone human sorcerers.

I agree with you about the favored class... the ECL and powers should favor the favored class. I honestly wondered when I wrote my analysis why the designers made it taht way...