Lizardfolk = ECL 4?!?!

[Wolfspider]

According to the Dragon magazine article, the half-dragon template gives the base creature +4 ECL, and the Hobgoblin is ECL 1. I don't know if the article trumps the DMG exactly, but I have a feeling this material will be included in the upcoming monster book (Tooth and Claw, isn't it called?).

 

[Guy Fullerton]

Did the DMG get trumped in Dragon magazine?

No.

The DMG's numbers are different from ECLs because the DMG's numbers are not ECLs. The DMG's numbers work (in many ways) like ECLs, but there are some important differences.

The ECL mechanism introduced in the FRCS was merely inspired by the stuff in the DMG, and is not necessarily 100% compatible with it.

 

[XCorvis]

I much prefer Soldarin's system to the FRHB or the vague mutterings of the DMG.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Soldarin's system is the only system out there - the otherrs are just lists. I prefer the lists, my self, though they aren't perfect; any system this complex (like the magic item creation rules) allows for too much manipulation if used unchecked.

 

[thundershot]

At least we finally HAVE something in print with ECL's. I had to adjust two PC's ECL's today, but in the end, all should work out. I'd rather be official than not... but if it really DOESN'T work out, I can always return to the way it was before...

Chris

 

[Conjureman]

Originally posted by Wolfspider:

ECL of 4 include bugbears, dryads, baboons, heavy and light horses, giant lizards, mules, small vipers, shocker lizards, vargouilles, and half-dragons.

Very strange. Just comparing lizardfolk and the half-dragon template, I can clearly see these things are not equivalent.


Actually, what really, really, really disturbs me here is that the half dragon template has the same ECL as a mule...

"Come on,you cranky old pack animal! Time to fight that half dragon!"

 

[Guy Fullerton]

Just comparing lizardfolk and the half-dragon template, I can clearly see these things are not equivalent.

Let's see your comparison. I bet you're forgetting that Lizardfolk get two hit dice (with all the standard benefits thereof) and the half-dragon gets none. (The same thing applies with the mule.)

ECLs for templates must account for the fact that you are sacrificing/losing valuable hit dice.

Before just assuming the designers are horribly wrong, please try playing it for yourself first. Game designers are professionals. They know what they're doing. Sure, they occasionally make poor judgements, but tell me why I should believe you (someone who is not a professional game designer) more than them?

 

[reapersaurus]

The DMG's numbers are different from ECLs because the DMG's numbers are not ECLs. The DMG's numbers work (in many ways) like ECLs, but there are some important differences.

The ECL mechanism introduced in the FRCS was merely inspired by the stuff in the DMG, and is not necessarily 100% compatible with it.

ummm... NOW I'm confused.
ECL's are not in the Core Rules?

What ARE those numbers in the DMG then?
Is my party hideously out of step with D&D rules if we don't incorporate the FR book?!?

[over-reaction] Man, this is beginning to remind me a HELL of a lot of Magic: the Gathering, and how if you didn't keep up with the week-to-week online rulings on cards, you might as well be playing a different game. [/over-reaction]

 

[Wolfspider]

Guy Fullerton said:

Let's see your comparison. I bet you're forgetting that Lizardfolk get two hit dice (with all the standard benefits thereof) and the half-dragon gets none. (The same thing applies with the mule.)

It was actually me who originally who made this comparison. Here it is again. (It's originally found on page 2 of this thread.)

What about comparing a lizardfolk with a human with the half-dragon template, since these are both ECL 4.

A lizardfolk gets:
*+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int
*+5 natural armor
*Darkvision 60 feet
*bite/claw/claw natural attacks (1d4/1d4/1d4)
*+4 Jump, +4 Swim, +4 Balance
*2d8 Hit Dice
*One extra feat (because of its starting 2d8 Hit Dice)
ECL=4

A human with the half-dragon template gets (in ADDITION to their normal human abilities):
*Hit Dice type increased to d12
*+8 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha
*Low light and Dark vision 60 feet
*+4 natural armor
*bite/claw/claw natural attacks (1d6/1d4/1d4)
*Breath weapon attack
*Immunity to sleep and paralysis and one elemental group
*ECL=+4

Yes, the lizardfolk will get an average of 8 hit points more than his companions. But a half-dragon's hit dice type improves to d12 no matter what it was before. Now, for a half-dragon barbarian that doesn't matter at all. But for a sorcerer or wizard (average increase of 4 hp/level)? A rogue or bard (average increase of 3 hp/level)? A cleric or druid or monk (average increase of 2 hp/level). Even a fighter, paladin, or ranger is going to see some impressive hp increases, to the tune of 1 hp more per class level.

I think that this hit dice change is AT LEAST equal to the additional HD the lizardfolk receives, and in many ways it is superior. In any case, the half-dragons other abilities (that it recieves IN ADDITION to any standard racial abilities) more than tip the scales (if you'll excuse the pun) toward the template.

Before just assuming the designers are horribly wrong, please try playing it for yourself first. Game designers are professionals. They know what they're doing. Sure, they occasionally make poor judgements, but tell me why I should believe you (someone who is not a professional game designer) more than them?

Before you make such accusatory statements, it would be a good idea for you to have actually READ THE WHOLE THREAD. I did present a clear and I think pretty convincing argument. I HAVE been playing a blasted lizardfolk druid at ECL 2 for the last two years. I must admit I'm not a professional game designer, alas, so I stand suitably chastised.

I didn't in any way mean to challenge the author's professionalism. I merely disagreed with his interpretation. I'll let you know what he thinks of this issue when I get a response to the email I sent.

 

[FANGO]

Regarding the earlier comment about wealth for characters with monster races...

I believe that it is explicitly stated in the DMG that you don't get extra wealth, etc. for the levels you gave up to be a monster race, so if you're going by the rules (or at least by those rules) then the human fighter would have more stuff (of course, this was quickly houseruled in my group and should probably be in others, too).