CRGreathouse
Community Supporter
Gromm said:
Also in the FRCS errata - ECL +4.
Lizardfolk = ECL 4?!?!
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Also in the FRCS errata - ECL +4.
Wolfspider
Explorer
Really? Wow...so it's not just a typo. I just can't believe that saurials and drow are +2 and lizardfolk are +4. That's unreal. I'll certainly be writing a letter to Dragon.
whatisitgoodfor
First Post
The thing that makes their ECL so high is that Natural Armor of theirs. Giving the character a +5 for free is pretty stout, especially in the lv<=15 range.
However, I do think that the +4 is a bit much, a +3 is about right, with the +4 reserved for 1/2 dragons (+4 NA, and +8 to Str OMG!).
However, I do think that the +4 is a bit much, a +3 is about right, with the +4 reserved for 1/2 dragons (+4 NA, and +8 to Str OMG!).
Guy Fullerton
First Post
ECL +4 is correct
ECL +4 for Lizardfolk is correct, guys.
Lizardfolk already have two hit dice, so they are automatically an ECL of +2 before you factor in the race's special abilities. The +5 Natural Armor bonus, +2 Str, +2 Con, natural weapons, and skill bonuses result in a total ECL of +4. Lizardfolk make kick-ass Fighters and Barbarians. (Similar logic explains why Bugbears are also ECL +4.) Sure, it's a conservative number, but ECLs must be conservative, lest they be exploited by players.
The other races (svirfneblin, drow, half-dragon) you are comparing Lizardfolk to don't start out with the two hit dice that Lizardfolk start with.
ECL +4 for Lizardfolk is correct, guys.
Lizardfolk already have two hit dice, so they are automatically an ECL of +2 before you factor in the race's special abilities. The +5 Natural Armor bonus, +2 Str, +2 Con, natural weapons, and skill bonuses result in a total ECL of +4. Lizardfolk make kick-ass Fighters and Barbarians. (Similar logic explains why Bugbears are also ECL +4.) Sure, it's a conservative number, but ECLs must be conservative, lest they be exploited by players.
The other races (svirfneblin, drow, half-dragon) you are comparing Lizardfolk to don't start out with the two hit dice that Lizardfolk start with.
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Wolfspider
Explorer
A few comparisons
Oh, I'll admit that lizardfolk are pretty tough. The natural armor and attacks are nice, and the extra hit points are useful. But, I still think ECL 4 is way too much. Do you really think that a 1st level lizardfolk fighter is the equivalent of a 5th level human fighter? Just in terms of hit points, we have 1d10+2d8+Con for the lizardfolk, and 5d10+Con for the human. The human will have more fighter feats and a higher BAB.
What about comparing a lizardfolk with a human with the half-dragon template, since these are both ECL 4.
A lizardfolk gets:
*+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int
*+5 natural armor
*Darkvision 60 feet
*bite/claw/claw natural attacks (1d4/1d4/1d4)
*+4 Jump, +4 Swim, +4 Balance
*2d8 Hit Dice
*One extra feat (because of its starting 2d8 Hit Dice)
ECL=4
A human with the half-dragon template gets (in ADDITION to their normal human abilities):
*Hit Dice type increased to d12
*+8 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha
*Low light and Dark vision 60 feet
*+4 natural armor
*bite/claw/claw natural attacks (1d6/1d4/1d4)
*Breath weapon attack
*Immunity to sleep and paralysis and one elemental group
*ECL=4
Maybe I'll change my lizardfolk over to a half-dragon human who just looks like a lizardfolk.
I think that it is really obvious from this comparison that lizardfolk to not deserve to share the same ECL as half-dragons.
OK, some might argue, we just increase the ECL for the half-dragon template and leave poor abused lizardfolk at 4.
Well, I think a comparison between lizardfolk and saurials (as described in Dragon 292) will dispell that notion.
A lizardfolk gets:
*+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int
*+5 natural armor
*Darkvision 60 feet
*bite/claw/claw natural attacks (1d4/1d4/1d4)
*+4 Jump, +4 Swim, +4 Balance
*2d8 Hit Dice
*One extra feat (because of its starting 2d8 Hit Dice)
ECL=4
A finhead saurial gets:
*+2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom (no penalties to any stats)
*2d8 Hit Dice
*Low light vision 60 feet
*+4 natural armor
*bite/claw/claw natural attacks (1d3/1d4/1d4)
*cold torpor (disadvantage--cold deals out subdual damage)
*+4 on saves vs. sonic effects and attacks
*-4 on saves vs. gas effects and attacks
*Scent (free feat)
ECL=2
I may just end up changing my lizardfolk to a saurial.
OK, you might argue that the saurial's ECL needs to be bumped up to 4 to match the lizardfolk. I would again ask this: Is a 1st level lizardfolk fighter the equal of a 5th level human one?
I can see a 1st level lizardfolk and a 3rd level human fighter being roughly equivalent in power. But 1st vs. 5th? Never.
I rest my case. Lizardfolk should be ECL 2, not ECL 4.
Oh, I'll admit that lizardfolk are pretty tough. The natural armor and attacks are nice, and the extra hit points are useful. But, I still think ECL 4 is way too much. Do you really think that a 1st level lizardfolk fighter is the equivalent of a 5th level human fighter? Just in terms of hit points, we have 1d10+2d8+Con for the lizardfolk, and 5d10+Con for the human. The human will have more fighter feats and a higher BAB.
What about comparing a lizardfolk with a human with the half-dragon template, since these are both ECL 4.
A lizardfolk gets:
*+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int
*+5 natural armor
*Darkvision 60 feet
*bite/claw/claw natural attacks (1d4/1d4/1d4)
*+4 Jump, +4 Swim, +4 Balance
*2d8 Hit Dice
*One extra feat (because of its starting 2d8 Hit Dice)
ECL=4
A human with the half-dragon template gets (in ADDITION to their normal human abilities):
*Hit Dice type increased to d12
*+8 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha
*Low light and Dark vision 60 feet
*+4 natural armor
*bite/claw/claw natural attacks (1d6/1d4/1d4)
*Breath weapon attack
*Immunity to sleep and paralysis and one elemental group
*ECL=4
Maybe I'll change my lizardfolk over to a half-dragon human who just looks like a lizardfolk.
I think that it is really obvious from this comparison that lizardfolk to not deserve to share the same ECL as half-dragons.
OK, some might argue, we just increase the ECL for the half-dragon template and leave poor abused lizardfolk at 4.
Well, I think a comparison between lizardfolk and saurials (as described in Dragon 292) will dispell that notion.
A lizardfolk gets:
*+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int
*+5 natural armor
*Darkvision 60 feet
*bite/claw/claw natural attacks (1d4/1d4/1d4)
*+4 Jump, +4 Swim, +4 Balance
*2d8 Hit Dice
*One extra feat (because of its starting 2d8 Hit Dice)
ECL=4
A finhead saurial gets:
*+2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom (no penalties to any stats)
*2d8 Hit Dice
*Low light vision 60 feet
*+4 natural armor
*bite/claw/claw natural attacks (1d3/1d4/1d4)
*cold torpor (disadvantage--cold deals out subdual damage)
*+4 on saves vs. sonic effects and attacks
*-4 on saves vs. gas effects and attacks
*Scent (free feat)
ECL=2
I may just end up changing my lizardfolk to a saurial.
OK, you might argue that the saurial's ECL needs to be bumped up to 4 to match the lizardfolk. I would again ask this: Is a 1st level lizardfolk fighter the equal of a 5th level human one?
I can see a 1st level lizardfolk and a 3rd level human fighter being roughly equivalent in power. But 1st vs. 5th? Never.
I rest my case. Lizardfolk should be ECL 2, not ECL 4.
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Sir Hawkeye
First Post
It seems that most of the monsters that had ECL's in the DMG have had them bumped up by about two. Centaur's went from 5 to 7, minotaurs from 8 to 10, ogres from 5 to 8, trogs from 2 to 5, etc. weird.
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