Magic in the LS Campaign

[Rystil Arden]

There's several, and since I don't want to use it anyway, it's really not worth it to get into a debate--just quickly (and knowing that you didn't carefully write this when presented with Martin, I can say things like 'is unfathomable to me' now ):

Without getting into material components, which are actually an even larger drawback, especially when it comes to the expensive component spells due to M&M's Wealth system (and you'll have to carry a component pouch that is essentially an easy to lose Device that makes you lose all your magic), the V,S component thing is clearly a Very Common Drawback--Any enemy, any time, can just grapple you (and a mage that's as good at grapple as other Supers is weird, so it will almost surely succeed), and you lose all your powers, plus there are many other ways to affect a similar loss of speech or movement. The GM might choose not to do so artificially, but the option exists in every single fight you'll ever encounter--this, to me, is even more common than some Very Common drawbacks I've seen listed. Making it Uncommon is rather unfathomable to me.

As to things that aren't D&D-inspired at all, the Distracting flaw is rather glaring--if D&D Wizards became flat-footed every time they used magic, they'd all be dead before level 2. The argument that this mimics the fact that casting provokes an AoO is extremely weak and makes no sense. If the author on ATT wanted to mimic an AoO, she could have written the flaw such that any enemy in melee reach of the caster gets a free attack as a Reaction whenever the caster uses magic.

To reiterate, though, it doesn't really matter--I just like to think about the theory of the game, and designing (or dissecting the existing design of) complex arrays or powers like that is fun to me.

 

[Hand of Vecna]

As to things that aren't D&D-inspired at all, the Distracting flaw is rather glaring--if D&D Wizards became flat-footed every time they used magic, they'd all be dead before level 2.

How so? In D&D, when you're flat-footed you just lose your Dex bonus to AC, which isn't much of a factor for the average spell-slinger's AC anyway (in my experience). Besides, a smart spell-slinger's should in most cases be trying to stay out of melee range, especially at low levels.

Though there is Sneak Attack, which flat-footed folks are vulnerable to... hrrmmm.

The argument that this mimics the fact that casting provokes an AoO is extremely weak and makes no sense. If the author on ATT wanted to mimic an AoO, she could have written the flaw such that any enemy in melee reach of the caster gets a free attack as a Reaction whenever the caster uses magic.

But even then, that would need to be tweaked so the "Reaction attack" can be avoided if the mage makes a Concentration check (to case defensively). Which sounds to me like too much work to figure out, so just saying they're flat-footed is good enough, especially if you're wanting to keep things simple and just use the RAW.

 

[Rystil Arden]

How so? In D&D, when you're flat-footed you just lose your Dex bonus to AC, which isn't much of a factor for the average spell-slinger's AC anyway (in my experience). Besides, a smart spell-slinger's should in most cases be trying to stay out of melee range, especially at low levels.

Though there is Sneak Attack, which flat-footed folks are vulnerable to... hrrmmm.



But even then, that would need to be tweaked so the "Reaction attack" can be avoided if the mage makes a Concentration check (to case defensively). Which sounds to me like too much work to figure out, so just saying they're flat-footed is good enough, especially if you're wanting to keep things simple and just use the RAW.

I don't see how the two are even remotely related. The build seems to have been designed by someone who doesn't want the archetype to be very fun to play--

I'd much rather the enemy get a free attack against me (possibly avoidable with a Concentration check, as you correctly point out) than have all my magic be Distracting. A Wizard type PC is going to be casting magic pretty much every round. Being flat-footed every round in M&M is horrible. Having all the magic be distracting is basically like saying "I'm going to have at best half of my defense at all times, worse if I get my Defense from anything but Base Defense". Heck, what does the Distracting flaw save you, 10 points? You could just not buy the other 5 points of Base Defense and get those 10 points back.

Actually, looking at it again, I see that the build only costs 34 points, so actually, I can understand it a bit better--did you get it off of a full character who has a lot of other things to do other than the magic and so just added this magic later? Because when I think of it on a character who usually does something else and only uses magic rarely, it makes more sense.

Anyways, I'm going to be using my own Variable array and not that setup, so it's no big deal either way. What are more interesting (and simply mystifying to me actually--I'm trying to learn more about it so I can understand your thought process) are your thoughts on PH 4th-level spells not being Limited. What did you think of my Infinity Blast example? I think it shows the main point--even if you can get extreme cornercase versions of many power types by name, you've still cut away way more than half of all possibilities.

 

[Hand of Vecna]

Without getting into material components, which are actually an even larger drawback, especially when it comes to the expensive component spells due to M&M's Wealth system (and you'll have to carry a component pouch that is essentially an easy to lose Device that makes you lose all your magic), the V,S component thing is clearly a Very Common Drawback--Any enemy, any time, can just grapple you (and a mage that's as good at grapple as other Supers is weird, so it will almost surely succeed), and you lose all your powers, plus there are many other ways to affect a similar loss of speech or movement. The GM might choose not to do so artificially, but the option exists in every single fight you'll ever encounter--this, to me, is even more common than some Very Common drawbacks I've seen listed. Making it Uncommon is rather unfathomable to me.

Ah, you seem to be confusing Ease with Frequency -- just because something's easy to do doesn't mean it will happen frequently. Or, to put it another way, in all the D&D games you've played/GMed, how often were the spellcasters grappled? Has it been every session? Or closer to every other session? Or less frequent than that?

I don't see how the two are even remotely related. The build seems to have been designed by someone who doesn't want the archetype to be very fun to play--

I'd much rather the enemy get a free attack against me (possibly avoidable with a Concentration check, as you correctly point out) than have all my magic be Distracting. A Wizard type PC is going to be casting magic pretty much every round. Being flat-footed every round in M&M is horrible. Having all the magic be distracting is basically like saying "I'm going to have at best half of my defense at all times, worse if I get my Defense from anything but Base Defense". Heck, what does the Distracting flaw save you, 10 points? You could just not buy the other 5 points of Base Defense and get those 10 points back.

If you desperately want to know, talk to Taliesin at the ATT, he's the one who came up with it.

EDIT: Seems Taliesin has altered it somewhat -- Distracting as a Flaw got bumped down to "Distracting to reconfigure" as a Drawback.

Actually, looking at it again, I see that the build only costs 34 points, so actually, I can understand it a bit better--did you get it off of a full character who has a lot of other things to do other than the magic and so just added this magic later? Because when I think of it on a character who usually does something else and only uses magic rarely, it makes more sense.

It was Raistlin, in his Black Robed Mage phase.

Anyways, I'm going to be using my own Variable array and not that setup, so it's no big deal either way. What are more interesting (and simply mystifying to me actually--I'm trying to learn more about it so I can understand your thought process) are your thoughts on PH 4th-level spells not being Limited.

It's not a limit, it's a descriptor, a style/theme (like "Faerie Glamour" or "Hermetic Magic" or "Divine Invocations" or "Calling the Voudoun Loas" or "Technomancy" [and while some styles have certain Limits associated with them, the styles themselves are not Limits]). It doesn't sufficiently limit him in what he can do:
* He'd have all seven effect types (Alteration, Attack, Defense, General, Movement, Sensory, and Speed)
* He'd have access to over 3/4ths of all Effects.
* There's few archetypal roles he can't fill and/or counter:
*** All his attack effects make him a very good Blaster/Sniper (especially with greater invisibility thrown in).
*** His buffing spells (bear's endurance, bull's strength, stoneskin, maybe even enlarge person and rage) make him a halfway decent Powerhouse (more the "take a hit" and less the "make a hit" type), and can turn others into halfway decent Powerhouses.
*** Displacement and haste levels the field somewhat between him and Martial Artists, Speedsters and Weapon Masters, as do grease, web, slow, stinking cloud, and black tentacles, which give him great leeway in altering the battlefield. The summon monster spells also help here, giving him a way to put critters between him and his foes.
*** With arcane eye, clairaudience/clairvoyance, and dimension door, there's little he can't find or get to (if not in one round, certainly faster than most folks). With charm monster and suggestion, he may not be able to get full-blown Mind Control, but he can come close; with lesser geas, unless he's using an errata'd version of the book or otherwise not using the spell descriptions strictly as written, he does have Mind Control (and a Linked Drain). These all make him a fairly decent Costumed Adventurer-Psionic-Spy.
*** At-will dispel magic is the perfect counter for other Mystics and mystically-equipped/empowered foes.
*** With polymorph, he's almost as versatile as a Shapeshifter.

And now that you've seen my reasonings on this, let me ask you what yours are. Specifically (and hypotethically), if "Only Arcane Spells of 4th level or lower from the D&D PHB" were to be allowed as a Limit/Flaw, at what point would he be experienced enough to buy off that Flaw? When he can get 7th level spells? 9th level? When he gets his hands on more D&D books (Complete Arcane, Complete Mage, PHB II, Spell Compendium, etc.) and incorporating spells from those? When he starts pulling spells from other RPGs?

 

[Rystil Arden]

And now that you've seen my reasonings on this, let me ask you what yours are. Specifically (and hypotethically), if "Only Arcane Spells of 4th level or lower from the D&D PHB" were to be allowed as a Limit/Flaw, at what point would he be experienced enough to buy off that Flaw? When he can get 7th level spells? 9th level? When he gets his hands on more D&D books (Complete Arcane, Complete Mage, PHB II, Spell Compendium, etc.) and incorporating spells from those? When he starts pulling spells from other RPGs?

Glad to answer that! I'm not sure if he ever would be. It becomes a slippery slope. Clearly once Limited Wish is allowed, it's not much of a limitation. I had my own ideas for other ways of advancing him--definitely not involving gaining spell levels one by one or adding D&D supplements or anything like that.

As to your rationales above, I'd like to examine them.

* He'd have all seven effect types (Alteration, Attack, Defense, General, Movement, Sensory, and Speed)

I don't think that really means anything. To go for a more extreme example, if you go from "Can do anything" to "Can Transform fish into newts or can attack with a sword or can add to your defense or can double your movement speed or can see in the dark", you may have these 'seven effect types' still, but this is still obviously incredibly incredibly limited.

* He'd have access to over 3/4ths of all Effects.

Your own list shows that this isn't the case. And it's quite possible to make a massive limit that gives the character access to pretty much every effect (frex, a character who has a variable power with exactly one way to use each possible effect is still majorly limited--remember the Infinity Blast example). The key is that even in the effects you get to keep, within each effect, you're majorly limited.

*** His buffing spells (bear's endurance, bull's strength, stoneskin, maybe even enlarge person and rage) make him a halfway decent Powerhouse (more the "take a hit" and less the "make a hit" type), and can turn others into halfway decent Powerhouses.
*** Displacement and haste levels the field somewhat between him and Martial Artists, Speedsters and Weapon Masters, as do grease, web, slow, stinking cloud, and black tentacles, which give him great leeway in altering the battlefield. The summon monster spells also help here, giving him a way to put critters between him and his foes.

I think you're making his buff spells out to be stronger than I would, personally. I tend to put in flaws on Boosts such that they can't last once taken out of the array that spawned them (too potentially abusive otherwise, frankly). In my build, if he has a buff up (other than the defensive buffs that he always has up that are outside the Variable Array, of course), he's going to have to leave that buff in the Variable array to keep it up, and that's going to cut down quickly on what else he can do. I doubt he will have more than maybe one buff running at once--I certainly would not like to see him with the Christmas tree of buffs you're suggesting up there. It could get kind of silly.

Ultimately, while I think that if you decide that D&D Arcane spells 4th-level and below is not a limit that it is both still incredibly lame and a really bad judgment call, it is your call (and the other judges') to make, and not mine. And if not, then I'll just have to play the far-less-fun character who has Variable Magic without the limit and have many more options available (far more than twice as many). I mean, it's not like the -1 Flaw is a make-or-break thing and that he would never have enough points otherwise.

 

[Hand of Vecna]

I don't think that really means anything. To go for a more extreme example, if you go from "Can do anything" to "Can Transform fish into newts or can attack with a sword or can add to your defense or can double your movement speed or can see in the dark", you may have these 'seven effect types' still, but this is still obviously incredibly incredibly limited.

And in that case you wouldn't have a Variable Power anyway, you'd have Transform with a few Alternate Powers (just like what your "Infinity Blast" would be). Which is sorta my point about this -- once you get beyond having a certain number of alternate powers on some base power (say, 25 alternates or so), it's frequently better -- both points-wise and record keeping-wise -- to just scrap the Array and go for a Variable Power.

Your own list shows that this isn't the case.

No, your interpretation of my list shows that's not the case. There are 7 things he absolutely cannot in any way do, and over 40 that he can. Someone with something like Shapeshift (Limit: Only Animals) can do nearly as much, but in that case it is worth a Limit because doing certain effects requires you to become certain things (if you want A, you'll have to become B which also requires taking C, D and E), whereas with spellcasting, no effect is tied to any other, so you can mix and match freely.

And it's quite possible to make a massive limit that gives the character access to pretty much every effect (frex, a character who has a variable power with exactly one way to use each possible effect is still majorly limited--remember the Infinity Blast example). The key is that even in the effects you get to keep, within each effect, you're majorly limited.

No, it's not -- access to every power, even of only "manifestation," is in no way a Limit, since you'd have access to every power and there'd be little to nothing you could not do. The only Effect Martin would truly be limited on is Insubstantial.

Ultimately, while I think that if you decide that D&D Arcane spells 4th-level and below is not a limit that it is both still incredibly lame and a really bad judgment call, it is your call (and the other judges') to make, and not mine. And if not, then I'll just have to play the far-less-fun character who has Variable Magic without the limit and have many more options available (far more than twice as many). I mean, it's not like the -1 Flaw is a make-or-break thing and that he would never have enough points otherwise.

I have strong suspicions that at least two of the other Judges feel the same way I do (that your proposed Limit is not a Limit), but am not totally sure, and do not wish to name names in case I am wrong. Discussion is ongoing (as are discussions on how thoroughly we would like you to re-build Circe, the reason behind a few of our recent judgment calls).

Also -- and in truth I should have said this at the very beginning of the thread -- any sort of "Variable Magic" power will need to go through the approval process, just like Gadgets had to.

 

[Rystil Arden]

And in that case you wouldn't have a Variable Power anyway, you'd have Transform with a few Alternate Powers (just like what your "Infinity Blast" would be). Which is sorta my point about this -- once you get beyond having a certain number of alternate powers on some base power (say, 25 alternates or so), it's frequently better -- both points-wise and record keeping-wise -- to just scrap the Array and go for a Variable Power.

And that's what you have with the D&D spell limit too--a set of a goodly number of alternate powers (not as many as you might expect, considering that many of the spells are not really applicable in M&M and many are lower level and not really a good idea to use). That's how Martin was originally built, but just as you said, I came to the same epiphany that I could do more in a better and easier manner with Variable. It's still a massive limit on a truly Variable power.

No, your interpretation of my list shows that's not the case. There are 7 things he absolutely cannot in any way do, and over 40 that he can. Someone with something like Shapeshift (Limit: Only Animals) can do nearly as much, but in that case it is worth a Limit because doing certain effects requires you to become certain things (if you want A, you'll have to become B which also requires taking C, D and E), whereas with spellcasting, no effect is tied to any other, so you can mix and match freely.

I count 37 that you admit he can't do and 2 that require animal forms like in your example Shapeshifter. That does not count a bunch that I disagree with you on, nor does it count another bunch where there are clear subsets in the power of which more than half are unavailable (frex, having Wind Wall is not even close to half as effective as having any Deflect power build you want, having Gust of Wind isn't even close to as good as total Air Control, and that nowithstanding that Air and Earth control are only half of the possible Elemental Controls--but I didn't include any of those).

And the Infinity Blast example I believe still holds. Infinity Blast itself is a legal power, and if you don't like the finite subset, try this one Infinity Blast Limited (Fire Only). That's clearly a fair Limit to place on it (you lose over half of your options and the ability to make a blast of any sort allows you to exploit enemy weaknesses. Compare to Flying Limited with space for wings).

No, it's not -- access to every power, even of only "manifestation," is in no way a Limit, since you'd have access to every power and there'd be little to nothing you could not do. The only Effect Martin would truly be limited on is Insubstantial.

That's just not true. Let's look at Deflect. A Mage with regular Variable Magic could make a spell that deflects all mental attacks made on herself and her allies right back at the user. She could also make a spell that lets her redirect all arrows and bullets and energy blasts in a radius around her to whatever target she wishes. And many many more. Martin with the proposed Limited can cast Wind Wall and only Wind Wall.

A bunch of fire monsters are menacing the group, approaching in approximately a cone shape. The Mage with true Variable Magic can make a cone of ice to slay them. Or if they were in a circle, she could make a Burst of ice. Martin can make a line of lightning which probably hits only one or two. His only burst is Fireball, which won't work.

The Mage with true Variable Magic can cast a spell to speak with animals or inanimate objects. Martin can only speak the languages of intelligent beings (which in LS is mostly humans).

The Mage with true Variable Magic can heal herself and her comrades with a spell. Martin can't. She can Teleport extremely far, and Martin can just do a few hundred feet. She can telepathically communicate, move things with her mind, and he just can't. If she needs to hit something insubstantial or on another dimension, she can just add that extra. If she needs an indirect attack, that works for her too (but he needs Line of Effect). She can add Homing power feat a few times and make her magical rays come back again and again until they hit, or the powerful Autofire extra (or both). He can't.

Also -- and in truth I should have said this at the very beginning of the thread -- any sort of "Variable Magic" power will need to go through the approval process, just like Gadgets had to.

Interesting. I guess that makes sense, but since the flavour of having gadgets versus having magic is the only real difference between them, it would be an incredible double standard (or an attempt to just make me leave LS, which, if that is the goal, you can just tell me to my face) to accept one and not the other.

 

[Hand of Vecna]

I count 37 that you admit he can't do and 2 that require animal forms like in your example Shapeshifter. That does not count a bunch that I disagree with you on, nor does it count another bunch where there are clear subsets in the power of which more than half are unavailable (frex, having Wind Wall is not even close to half as effective as having any Deflect power build you want, having Gust of Wind isn't even close to as good as total Air Control, and that nowithstanding that Air and Earth control are only half of the possible Elemental Controls--but I didn't include any of those).

No, I admit he cannot do seven (in any way). Those he can still do -- even if only "partially" (like Deflect or Insubstantial) -- I still count as him being able to do.

Interesting. I guess that makes sense, but since the flavour of having gadgets versus having magic is the only real difference between them, it would be an incredible double standard (or an attempt to just make me leave LS, which, if that is the goal, you can just tell me to my face) to accept one and not the other.

Not just a flavor thing, since Gadgets have the Device flaw, whereas Variable Magic would not.

 

[Victor_Von]

Well, admittedly, the book does also say you have to know when to say no. As to Aztec gods, it isn't a limitation so much as a category (excuse the term limited) for Shapeshift, but a player could always make up a fake Aztec god. If I described the actual info known about Huitzilopachtli and then described a fake god, I bet I could trick around 50% of subjects in a double-blind experiment into thinking that the fake one was the real Aztec god when asked. Of course, info on the Aztec gods is fully available on the internet. Of course, so are the SRD spells for D&D.

As to the requirement of full knowledge of the game system, I would say that's a canard considering the nature of Mutants and Masterminds. If this was Feng Shui or Risus, maybe, but the correlation between the two systems is high, and it would be up to the player to fit the spell into M&M anyway, so the GM doesn't need to have to figure that out.

And as to players/abuse/etc, such a concept can often be true in D&D, and it's why D&D sometimes need a strict hardline Rules-as-Written GM, but in M&M, the game is intentionally looser to give you the power to create something cool. By default, this carries the necessary caveat that it also gives the power to abuse. It's rather easy to make a really lame and unfun character (Nukleor, the man who blows up the planet every round or Light-Bright, the hero who fills all of North America with blinding light except for herself, etc). Trust is important. If you lose that and you start getting into strict enforcement, you lose a lot of the ability to create cool things, and you change the entire tone of the game. It can cause the game to slow to a crawl. When I've run M&M in real life, it has been a smashing success when I blatantly copied from a far superior GM than myself and answered almost every question of "Can I...X?" with "Sure, but it'll cost you a Hero Point / Extra Effort".

Since face-to-face is different, I'd bet you actually could make it work with a totalitarian GM. But PbP is different. You need momentum or the game will slow and die. Mother-may-I with the GM also hurts, particularly when the GM and player have different posting schedules.

A good example of this--the players are excited about the game and want it to push forward, but the GM is kind of slow, so the players try to do something to help the game go forward

Player A: Oh crap! Dr. Dark? I use my datalink to send an IM to Player B.
Player B: Whoah, cool! I'm going to use Super Speed to come help Player A. I'll try to make a Sonic Boom to distract Dr. Dark.
Player A: Good idea! If I get the chance, I'm going to use Phoenix Pinions on him.

Now, there are several GM responses. Here's the response from the GM that I'll call the 'good' response for PbP (good because it's going to keep pace and momentum and make the game exciting)

GM: Alright, cool. B, you normally don't have the Sonic Boom power feat on your Super Speed, so you're now Fatigued, but Dr. Dark is totally confused, and A, you get a chance to take an action against him, using Phoenix Pinions and engulfing him in a rain of fiery arrows. B, you can spend a hero point to recover

Now the bad response (assume that the GM is technically correct about everything he says)

GM: Yeah, A. Actually I've been looking at your character sheet, and you can't use your Datalink because there aren't any computers close enough. And B, although it might seem like you can get there in 1 round, I've been reading ATT, and according to Steve Kenson, the official interpretation of your Super Speed states that you would actually take 2 hours to get there. Check this link for the explanation of why. Also, you can't do a Sonic Boom because you don't have that power. You could technically add a power feat with extra effort, but that's subject to my approval, so I have to think about it, though I'm leaning towards no. Also, A, I don't understand how your Phoenix Pinions is supposed to work. I think you paid for a power feat when you should have paid for an extra here, and the way you linked it is weird. Is it supposed to unleash fiery energy from the legendary phoenix in the form of a hail of fiery pinions? I don't see the mystic descriptor, and you have it listed for the wrong shape type, I think. Shouldn't it also be a slow projectile? A, let's pause while you explain it to me and we work out exactly how the power should be costed. Also, let's rewind back to when Dr. Dark appeared because none of that stuff you did could actually happen.


Just to say, as a random aside, Raylis has shown himself to be an excellent example of the first style of GM. As far as PbP M&M GMing goes, he is the best I've seen yet on this forum (and clearly better than me too!)

You wrote a very long, detailed response. However, I don't feel like it addressed my points, so let me restate and respond.

First, the problem of trust. I think you're creating a false choice-- either Complete Trust or Totalitarianism. I think that players have to trust the GMs they play with to a certain degree as well-- trust them not to deny a player's wishes without good reason.

Your examples of abusive characters are similarly unrealistic, and easily rejected for campaign reasons. The examples you cite are similarly loaded-- who wouldn't allow a Sonic Boom stunted off Super Speed? Only a overcontrolling dictator who is disrupting his own game. That wouldn't be any fun for anyone, the GM included. Maybe you've had some bad experiences, but I don't think that's a danger here.

Your example of Bad GMing does sort of reinforce part of my subtext: that character problems need to be resolved in the creation stage, not repeatedly brought up in game. If a GM foresees problems, then he probably shouldn't approve a concept. It just leads to frustration on everyone's part as those problems play out, forcing the game to stall and frequently fall apart. Since the GM has more invested in a game he's written, he tends to try to work with players, even if maybe he -- if a bad concept is permitted, a manipulative player clearly has an advantage both over the GM and his fellows.

Finally, I think M&M's magic system has a lot less in common with D&D than it does with something like Feng Shui, where Sorcery has very broad effects but there are still controls on those effects. The controls built into D&D would not be in effect in the character you're describing-- the diminishing nature of magic in D&D, and the limited number of spells of a given level, the time it takes to cast spells, the vulnerability of spell-casters-- and things like Duration and Area of Effect sync up poorly. I'd have to presume you'd go with M&M's definitions of things like that where they conflict.

And I still feel like you're asking a lot of a GM. Part of a GM's job is strategic mistrust, figuring out what to ask questions about and what to leave alone. A GM without extensive experience in AD&D v. 3.5 is at a significant disadvantage, the other players might feel like they have to overstep their roles and help police the game, and that way lies madness.

 

[Victor_Von]

Glad to answer that! I'm not sure if he ever would be. It becomes a slippery slope. Clearly once Limited Wish is allowed, it's not much of a limitation. I had my own ideas for other ways of advancing him--definitely not involving gaining spell levels one by one or adding D&D supplements or anything like that.

Um... "not much of a limitation"? I hope that was ironic understatement.

"Not quite omnipotent" is a bad baseline when we're talking about PL 8 or PL 10 characters.