Making ability scores more about the character concept.

[TwoSix]

For me the race minimums are important.

An Orc should feel tough and brutish, and be naturally good at tough brutish classes.

If an Orc was fragile, it would feel abnormal, atypical.



If the races fail to feel different from each other. Then I would prefer to remove race from D&D. In that case, I would make it more like superhero games where race is an afterthought that a player may or may not want for flavor, after deciding what the hero can do.

I'm personally a fan of lowering the point buy amount slightly, but having each race either give a +1 bonus or set a minimum stat floor. Like a High Elf would get a +1 to Int or Dex, or those stats are automatically set to 13 if they are less than 13.

That way, it gives you more of an incentive to play races off-type (since you get higher overall bonuses), but you can't do that AND get a starting 16.

 

[Yaarel]

I'm personally a fan of lowering the point buy amount slightly, but having each race either give a +1 bonus or set a minimum stat floor. Like a High Elf would get a +1 to Int or Dex, or those stats are automatically set to 13 if they are less than 13.

That way, it gives you more of an incentive to play races off-type (since you get higher overall bonuses), but you can't do that AND get a starting 16.

13th Age has stats do something like that. Each race and class gives a choice of stat boosts.
For example.

High Elf ( ≈ Eladrin Elf, Sun Elf)
• Charisma +2 or Intelligence +2

Wizard
• Intelligence +2 or Wisdom +2

So, when you create a high elf wizard, you coordinate both race and class, thus build Intelligence +2 plus either Charisma +2 or Wisdom +2.

It would be possible to have such a hero be Charisma +2 and Wisdom +2, but the absence of Intelligence would be a poor choice for a wzar.

 

[TwoSix]

13th Age has stats do something like that. Each race and class gives a choice of stat boosts.
For example.

High Elf ( ≈ Eladrin Elf, Sun Elf)
• Charisma +2 or Intelligence +2

Wizard
• Intelligence +2 or Wisdom +2

So, when you create a high elf wizard, you coordinate both race and class, thus build Intelligence +2 plus either Charisma +2 or Wisdom +2.

It would be possible to have such a hero be Charisma +2 and Wisdom +2, but the absence of Intelligence would be a poor choice for a wzar.

13th Age has flexible stat bonuses, based on both race and class, yes. Having a minimum stat floor is a different kind of concept, though. It incentivizes different kinds of builds.

 

[Rossbert]

I'm personally a fan of lowering the point buy amount slightly, but having each race either give a +1 bonus or set a minimum stat floor. Like a High Elf would get a +1 to Int or Dex, or those stats are automatically set to 13 if they are less than 13.

That way, it gives you more of an incentive to play races off-type (since you get higher overall bonuses), but you can't do that AND get a starting 16.

Would there ever be a real reason NOT to put a low score in you minimum racial stat? Seems an easy way to turn an -1 into +1

 

[TwoSix]

Would there ever be a real reason NOT to put a low score in you minimum racial stat? Seems an easy way to turn an -1 into +1

I'd certainly leave it at 8, and let the floor boost it, yes. The only reason you wouldn't is if you were playing a class where that stat was primary, and you don't want to start with only a +1 in your primary. That's why I would make the race featured stats set a floor OR give a bonus, but not both.

That way, high elves make good wizards and rogues, but even a high elf fighter or cleric is still more dextrous and intelligent than the average human.

 

[TheSword]

I think it is less about the primaries and more about how certain stats are useful to everyone.

Functionally no one will dump Con.
Most people will not dump Wis (perception).
Non-heavy armor uses will almost always have a high Dex.

These three stats plus your main (especially if it isn't one of those) means that most characters have 2-4 of their stats basically set right away.

The question isn’t whether any given stat is useful it’s how many points go into it. So while you may not have Con 16 you may still have 12 and be perfectly playable. As I said my elf rogue in Middle earth has Con 10 because it fits the character and she hasn’t priorities elsewhere.

Is what you’re saying that as well as high Dex, Wis and Con you’d also like a high Strength for your fighter and a high Intelligence because you want to be smart?

If so then maybe accept that these scores will all be 12-14

 

[mellored]

Give INT a role for fighters in combat and/or for other advancement elements.

I though of this, but that would be a whole lot to add to every class and very difficult to balance.
Simpler to just leave ability score as skills and saves.

 

[mellored]

Counter-argument: Something seems off when a fighter has no reason to care about Strength, and a wizard has no reason to care about Intelligence.

If a strong fighter doesn't hit harder than a weak one, then Strength doesn't actually measure strength, and we're left struggling to explain what it is.

Edit: Counter-counter-argument: If you're using a Dex-based weapon, a strong fighter doesn't hit harder than a weak one, so maybe this is a line which has already been crossed (and further crossing doesn't cause any new issues).

I see any stat as valid.

Str -> The fighter hits harder.
Dex-> The fighter hits more accurately.
Con-> The fighter's relentless assault tires the enemy while the fighter endures.
Int -> The fighter knows the enemies weak points.
Wis -> The fighter's perception allows him to spot weaknesses.
Cha -> The fighter's feints and tricks the enemy into overextending.


With my suggestion, there are now 6 different flavors of fighter (plus all the combinations). All balanced.

 

[mellored]

I find, the more stats, then the more impossible it is to balance the stats with each other.

My minimalist four stats balance well and correspond well to narrative tropes.

On the same note. The more stuff tied to each stat, the harder it is to balance.

Dex has to-hit, damage, AC, stealth, saving throw, balance, fall damage, slight of hand, archery... (possibly a few more). Very hard to work with.

 

[Yaarel]

On the same note. The more stuff tied to each stat, the harder it is to balance.

Dex has to-hit, damage, AC, stealth, saving throw, balance, fall damage, slight of hand, archery... (possibly a few more). Very hard to work with.

A bottom-up analysis helps ensure stats balance with each other. First, list all of the mechanics in order of frequency in play. Then, make sure the most frequent ones divide up evenly among the number of stats.

The problem with D&D Dexterity mechanically is, attack rolls, damage, armor class, Reflex save, and to some degree initiative and stealth, are all frequent and decisive mechanics. They shouldnt be all one stat.

The problem with Dexterity narratively is, people who know how to fall dont know how to jump, and people who know how to balance dont know how to climb. It is absurd.

Anyway, Dexterity needs rethinking.




With regard to my foursome, every stat has high use.

Athletic − melee attack rolls, move (jump, climb, balance, fall, etc.), reflex save
Tough − melee damage, hit points, fortitude save, heavy weapons/armor, reach, lift
Perceptive − shooting attack rolls, perception save, stealth, deception, knowledge
Empathic − magic and casting, social skills (can resolve an encounter), willpower save