D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Hussar]

Cool... so other than declaring we are all wasting our time trying to change the status quo do you have anything of actual value to add to the discussion?

To be fair, he's not saying anything I didn't say pages and pages ago. We can talk about this all we like, but, it's not going to happen. There's a few reasons why this won't happen. 1. Any actual attempt to make this happen will see exactly what you see in this thread, a complete and utter denial that there is any need for this and a huge dollop of badwrongfun combined with why are people trying to destroy D&D (IOW, proxy edition warring and making sure that the game only suits specific needs) 2. WotC has no actual incentive to do this. Ten years of casters being the best thing in the game, combined with several supplements which have all been caster centric shows that there is just no reason for WotC to do this.

Like I said, we lost this argument back during the 5e playtest ten years ago. Remember when fighters go exploding dice? When fighters got this massive pool of d12's that they'd get to add to pretty much everything? Remember how it's taken ten years just to get the idea that a non-magical attack can use a save or half damage mechanic (AKA damage on a miss)?

And you want to rewrite the last ten levels of fighters? Bud, you KNOW I'm right there behind you, but, let's be honest here, we're whistling in the wind.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yeah, I've noticed people still insisting on a narrative that justifies martials being more than farmers with sticks, despite the fact that I know I personally have given at least three, saw anther one from Minigiant, think there was at least one more. So, after six possible explanations maybe more, you wanted to insist that we consider a possible explanation? Was there something lacking in any of the ones we have repeatedly put forth multiple times in this thread?

And of course, the very important "when building a class, make sure you build a class" question. Highly valuable. Most people sitting down to design a class forget that classes have levels from 1 to 20, they usually just start at 15 for some reason.

Needlessly sarcastic. I'm not against the mythic martial.

 

[James Gasik]

I wasn't aware that this thread was an attempt to get WotC to fix anything; didn't we start with the premise of "how can you fix the game yourself?".

This whole side debate about what WotC could/should/won't do is irrelevant. Also irrelevant is this burning need for a "mythic martial" to make sense and not have a bunch of random abilities. Lots of classes have random abilities. Just look at the Monk! The subclass designed to "throw hands", The Way of the Open Hand:

"Monks of the Way of the Open Hand are the ultimate masters of martial arts combat, whether armed or unarmed. They learn techniques to push and trip their opponents..." Mhm, sounds good so far.

"...manipulate ki to heal damage to their bodies, and practice advanced meditation that can protect them from harm." Eh, come again? I thought this was the Bruce Lee subclass, why do I have a shabby self-heal (I can heal myself for 3x Monk level; the Paladin can heal anybody for up to 5x Paladin level, and deal with poison and disease) and the ability to "cast" Sanctuary?

Now someone might say "legacy Monk abilities!" and I'd say "should be in the main class". They might say "martial arts movies!" and I'd say "if these abilities belong here, why does Way of Mercy exist?".

Not every class or subclass has a very good unified theme; in fact, the Fighter currently has one of the weakest themes in the game! I mean what is their theme? They "fight good" in a system where everyone fights good? They can use all weapons in a game where anyone can get martial proficiency from a subclass, even a Wizard?

You want to talk about random abilities? What does "short rest self heal" and "1/day reroll a failed save" have to do with "I'm a professional soldier/gladiator/mercenary/man-at-arms?". Shouldn't we have some kind of weapon specialization or tactical ability in the base class? No, what we get is "attack more times".

But somehow, to perform at a level above this, we need some kind of "story". In a game where creative people can reflavor things to create their own story! Never mind that the Sorcerer exists, you know, the "somehow got powers due to being the son of a dragon/god/demon, an ancestral curse, touched by Vorlons" class. Or how about the Warlock, the "bought magic from a shady guy in a back alley" class?

Or hey, we can pick on the Ranger, the "I'm kind of like Hawkeye (no not the Avenger. Or the Doctor. I'm talking Last of the Mochicans)/Aragorn/Tarzan all in one class! I have vague Druidic magic, maybe an animal friend, maybe I'm a great archer, maybe I have great powers when skulking about in darkness/maybe I dual wield/maybe I'm good at woodsey stuff!". And you want to talk about random abilities, jeez, just look at the Hunter Conclave and ask why Rangers have Whirlwind Attack and not Fighters!

So yeah. Flavor is what you make of it. I would expect a DM to come up with the flavor for their own campaign. I mean, do we not let people play Rune Knights because we don't use Giants in our campaigns? I would hope not!

 

[Nadan]

I wasn't aware that this thread was an attempt to get WotC to fix anything; didn't we start with the premise of "how can you fix the game yourself?".

Then why post this thread in One D&D broad? Isn't this kind of topic belong to general D&D broad instead? Is "how you fix the part of game you deem broke" relate to how WotC will do in 2024?

 

[Mistwell]

I see, calling 30% a large chunk is "spinning" but calling less than 50% "most" is being open and honest. And I'm being the one who's being dismissive?

Again, if you don't think there's an issue here. If you don't want a mythic fighter class, why are you in a thread discussing what a mythic fighter would look like? Why are you insisting that there is no problem and we don't need a mythic fighter? That's not the question.

But, sure, I'm the one who's being dismissive.

Hussar...this isn't the mythic fighter class thread. That's a side issue, remember? Also being discussed more pointedly in a separate thread. I never said anything about not wanting a mythic fighter. What are you even talking about?

And I clarified that a large majority had at least one, and almost a majority had 2, and that's just of 8th level or higher because we know from WOTC data that most players don't play high level and also that fighter is highly popular. So you know, I know, we all know the no-caster is popular. Which was the point. The other point was that the overwhelming majority who have at least one no-caster HAVE FUN with that class in those groups. We also know it's a minority (a pretty small minority being less than 1/3) that have no no-caster classes in their groups. Yes, it's spin to focus on that small minority as if that's the meaningful takeaway from a poll which obviously went the opposite of what you expected before the poll was taken.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Then why post this thread in One D&D broad? Isn't this kind of topic belong to general D&D broad instead? Is "how you fix the part of game you deem broke" relate to how WotC will do in 2024?

Perhaps because One D&D hasn't yet been published, so chatting about things folks hope to see in it is not yet a lost cause.

 

[Incenjucar]

OneD&D is the next version of the rules, so there's less reason to homebrew for 5E original recipe. It's also reasonable to lament how WotC isn't likely to do this themselves despite clearly being aware that the fighter is lacking, given the changes they have experimented with.

 

[Hussar]

Hussar...this isn't the mythic fighter class thread. That's a side issue, remember? Also being discussed more pointedly in a separate thread. I never said anything about not wanting a mythic fighter. What are you even talking about?

And I clarified that a large majority had at least one, and almost a majority had 2, and that's just of 8th level or higher because we know from WOTC data that most players don't play high level and also that fighter is highly popular. So you know, I know, we all know the no-caster is popular. Which was the point. The other point was that the overwhelming majority who have at least one no-caster HAVE FUN with that class in those groups. We also know it's a minority (a pretty small minority being less than 1/3) that have no no-caster classes in their groups. Yes, it's spin to focus on that small minority as if that's the meaningful takeaway from a poll which obviously went the opposite of what you expected before the poll was taken.

Errr, what?

This is from the OP:

so that's a few starting ideas. What else do you think would make the high level world less insurmountable for martials?

In what way is this not a "mythic fighter" thread?

And, no, I do not think that a third of tables is a "small" minority. Good grief, I got absolutely raked over the coals for suggesting that 1 in 20 PC's being a halfling was a very small minority.

In any case, I do strongly disagree. This really IS the "mythic fighter" thread. That's what we keep trying to have a conversation about. Instead we have to constantly justify even having the conversation in the first place.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Errr, what?

This is from the OP:



In what way is this not a "mythic fighter" thread?

And, no, I do not think that a third of tables is a "small" minority. Good grief, I got absolutely raked over the coals for suggesting that 1 in 20 PC's being a halfling was a very small minority.

In any case, I do strongly disagree. This really IS the "mythic fighter" thread. That's what we keep trying to have a conversation about. Instead we have to constantly justify even having the conversation in the first place.

i mean, at the start of the thread i thought it was as much about what can we change about the game environment of high level play to give fighters more options or tweak them to better change how they can interact with it.

letting a wall of force be brought down by regular damage improves the fighter without fundamentally altering them because the fighter is already good at doing regular damage

giving the fighter athletics expertise doesn't really change how they play or their options but makes them more reliable at what they're meant to be good at and combined with making the skill system have more impact improves their functional options

giving the fighter De Facto ranks of authority doesn't make them magic but they still now have fiat abilities to influence the game.

 

[Yaarel]

letting a wall of force be brought down by regular damage

Using "damage" to bring down a Wall of Force makes less sense.

Force is a physical but immaterial force. Gravity is a kind of Force Construct.

To use a sword to bring down a Wall of Force would be conceptually like using a sword to diminish the force of gravity.

But, to use a Strength Check to push thru a Wall of Force, to overcome its area of repulsion, does make conceptual sense.