May Rules Update

[UngeheuerLich]

Throw & Stab + Marauder's Rush was way too obvious of a combo, because they where specifically supposed to compliment one-another. That was to be the basis of the Marauder build, now you have Throw & Stab and something else, and the power named after the build no longer even has a real place in it.

marauders rush can be used in conjunction with encounter powers that allow a throw and a charge (hurling charge e.g.)

it is still a very good opening combo. and if you have no adjacent target you can still use it.

So in a surprise round quarry, throw, marauder rush (a single standard action by the use of hurling charge) with dirty fighting has the potential to take the first enemy out. Of course you need to have high wisdowm to make it worth taking.

 

[Shazman]

I understand that some of the things they nerfed seemed to be on the strong side, but, quite frankly, I think the game needs things like ranger/fighter/pitfighters and half-elf avengers with twin strike and daggermaster to help PC's deal enough damage to take out foes in a reasonable amount of time. In the end, I think these changes will only serve to help drag out paragon level combats even more.

 

[MrMyth]

I understand that some of the things they nerfed seemed to be on the strong side, but, quite frankly, I think the game needs things like ranger/fighter/pitfighters and half-elf avengers with twin strike and daggermaster to help PC's deal enough damage to take out foes in a reasonable amount of time. In the end, I think these changes will only serve to help drag out paragon level combats even more.

My party of optimized PCs, at level 25, tossed out something like 900 damage in a single round against the last solo they came up against. And that was only with 2-3 PCs actually focusing resources on the fight.

I am confident you can have high damage PCs without needing these extreme optimization tricks. Saying that you need these very specific combos is just silly - plenty of games out there don't feature them, and plenty more have entirely average PCs that still get through fights in a reasonable amount of time.

Given that WotC is also apparently moving towards more use of monsters that are lower hp and higher damage (based on MM2 solos, and potentially indicated by Dark Sun previews), I think getting rid of such clearly unbalanced mechanics is absolutely in the best interest of the game.

 

[kaomera]

marauders rush can be used in conjunction with encounter powers that allow a throw and a charge (hurling charge e.g.)

Ah, thanx. It's what I get for going to the compendium instead of my books, I was only looking at the at-wills.

 

[DracoSuave]

As an aside, I've never -really- got the whole charge-based min/maxing idea in terms of -real- CharOp. It's always seemed kinda niche for me, and a one trick pony.

After all, it's a single target damage build, but it seems it's single target damage plan is to:

Step 1) Charge the enemy really hard.
Step 2) ????
Step 3) Profit!


Don't get me wrong, the charge is REALLY good... but most charging-based characters are underpants gnomes, they don't do anything good -but- charge.

 

[keterys]

I've got a not-charge-based lvl 17 barbarian (thunderborn / iron vanguard) who, in most fights (ie, ones in which I have a decent rage going) can charge for about 5d6+36. If I were actually built for charging, I'd have another 2d6+2 to 2d6+8 on there I suppose. Maybe more, haven't looked too closely at it.

Which is on par or better than a some of my more situational encounter powers (like the one that gives a -6 to all defenses only does like 4d6+30), but two clearly do more damage than that - something like 5d6+48 for one and 3d6+42 for another (along with pushing or granting combat advantage, and actually hitting all enemies in a close blast 4 for a decent slice of that damage).

Meh, I'd not want to get stuck charging _every_ round.

 

[kaomera]

As an aside, I've never -really- got the whole charge-based min/maxing idea in terms of -real- CharOp. It's always seemed kinda niche for me, and a one trick pony.

Seriously optimized charge builds try and have a way to repeat the process. But I think that one of the reasons there are so many good bonuses available for charging is that it's supposed to be situational. I haven't seen what I would consider a CharOp-level charging build, but I've seen several PCs built to be good at charging, among other things, and they seem to be plenty effective without sacrificing all of their options to be a "super-charger".

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Ah, thanx. It's what I get for going to the compendium instead of my books, I was only looking at the at-wills.

actually i looked at the compendium... but actually i skipped throw and stab before the nerf when i tried building a marauder, because i thougt one charge at the beginning with hurling charge is enough and then stay in melee using a non throwing weapon in the off hand

 

[Iron Sky]

As an aside, I've never -really- got the whole charge-based min/maxing idea in terms of -real- CharOp. It's always seemed kinda niche for me, and a one trick pony.

After all, it's a single target damage build, but it seems it's single target damage plan is to:

Step 1) Charge the enemy really hard.
Step 2) ????
Step 3) Profit!


Don't get me wrong, the charge is REALLY good... but most charging-based characters are underpants gnomes, they don't do anything good -but- charge.

The barbarian in my group ends up charging pretty much every round where he isn't immobilized or restrained. Boots of Adept Charging are the most important single item to pull it off (shift 1 after a charge). He just charges and shifts back. If the enemy pursues, he shifts away from them and charges something else, otherwise he just backs up and charges them again.

Most of his encounter powers are to use when he can't charge(Avalanche Strike for example). They tend to do about the same damage (or a bit less) than he does charging with his at-will Howling Strike.

As for your last comment, when you do around 40 damage a round at level 11 with an at-will charge (he's done 150 or more in a round when there's a crit involved), you don't need to do anything else. He would regularly deal as much damage a round as the sorcerer and the assassin combined...

 

[CovertOps]

It's not this one, it's all the other instances using similar languages which are now wracked by this specific ruling.

RAI is clear, we heard it from the designers themselves, they didn't meant for HL to apply to CLW. However it seems as if the designers tripped over a snarl in their own rules language.

The way to make HL no longer apply to CLW would be the update CLW to just say "The target regains hit points equal to it's healing surge value" instead of "The target regains hit points as if it had spent a healing surge."

Because the "as if" wording has a special meaning in 4e rules language and their current answer about HL and CLW is generally changing this meaning across a lot of different powers.

I think you've missed the obvious. Specific beats general. Normally CLW would be the specific (with it's "as if" wording) and Healer's Lore would be the general, but in this case Healer's Lore specifically says the ability must allow you to spend a surge. CLW does not allow this so it does not apply. Also since specific beats general it doesn't break any other rules using the "as if" wording because it only applies to this situation.