Meta magic feat

[Dross Swordra]

Hey guys, I am a relatively new player and was hoping that some of you guys could help critique a couple of new meta-magic feats.

Baneful Spell : Benefit : The target of a Baneful spell must make (2) saving throw rolls, keeping the lower result. A baneful spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level

Improved Baneful Spell : Prereq: Baneful Spell: Benefit: The target of an Improved Baneful Spell must make (3) saving throw rolls, keeping the lowest result. An Improved Baneful spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level.

I appreciate any input you guys have.

-Dross

 

[dristin]

I like them just how they are, good job. Wasn't there a spell in 2ed that accomplished the same thing? I think it was called Thrice, and Thrice supreme, but I may be wrong.

Anyways, these feats look good to me.

Happy Trails

 

[Brain]

I think the level adjustments are too low for the benefit. I'd probably err on the side of caution and say +2 and +4, or something like that.

 

[Dross Swordra]

I think the level adjustments are too low for the benefit. I'd probably err on the side of caution and say +2 and +4, or something like that.

I thought about that, but in my opinion Baneful spell is about the same power level as extend spell and Improved Baneful is definitely not as powerful/useful as quicken spell. But, again, I haven't really tested this out. I suppose in the hands of a higher level caster, these feats become more potent. Maybe I should just make a spell like Spell Enhancer, or like Dristin mentioned, Thrice and Thrice Supreme (BTW these spells are from the Forgotten Realms supplement Cult of the Dragon from 2ed)

 

[Pyrex]

Baneful spell is *not* the same powerlevel as Extend.

Baneful spell is (for any spell where Save: Negates) nearly as good as Twin spell, which is +4.

Enchanters and Necromancers with Baneful and/or Improved Baneful are going to be very powerful.

And in the name of all that's holy, a (Improved) Baneful Prismatic Wall is just plain wrong...

 

[dristin]

Baneful spell is *not* the same powerlevel as Extend.

Baneful spell is (for any spell where Save: Negates) nearly as good as Twin spell, which is +4.

Enchanters and Necromancers with Baneful and/or Improved Baneful are going to be very powerful.

And in the name of all that's holy, a (Improved) Baneful Prismatic Wall is just plain wrong...

I disagree. with twin spell you are literally effecting the victim with a doubled spell. They could possibly fail both saves and be nailed for twice the damage. I think maybe a compromise would be in order, maybe call Baneful a +2 and Improved Baneful a +3. On a whole twin spell and quicken spell are clearly superior to the Baneful spell, thus you can't justify sticking a +4 modifier on this feat.

 

[Muaythaidaddy]

That's a GREAT feat, but I would agree with a +2 over a +1.

 

[the Jester]

WAAAAY undercosted at +1 and +2.

I'd say +3 and +5, myself. Think about it in terms of instant death spells. You should always rate a feat, spell or other ability by its most efficient powergamed use.

 

[Pyrex]

I disagree. with twin spell you are literally effecting the victim with a doubled spell. They could possibly fail both saves and be nailed for twice the damage. I think maybe a compromise would be in order, maybe call Baneful a +2 and Improved Baneful a +3. On a whole twin spell and quicken spell are clearly superior to the Baneful spell, thus you can't justify sticking a +4 modifier on this feat.

What I'm saying though is that for many spells a doubled effect is meaningless.

Baneful Dominate Person is equivalent to a Twinned Dominate Person.

Improved Baneful Dominate Person is clearly superior to a Twinned Dominate Person.

Ditto for the following spells:
Baleful Polymorph. Flesh to Stone. Other offensive Transmutation spells.
Any [Charm] or [Compulsion] spell.
Bestow Curse. Finger of Death. Many other offensive Necromancy spells.
(Greater) Scrying. Any other Divination spell that allows a save.

Still think it's fair at +1/+2?

 

[Bront]

+2 minemum for the 1st feat, I think you're talking closer to +3. Compair to Highten, which simply reaises the DR by +1 per spell level increased. Is a +1 DR equal to roll 2 keep lower? A +2 probably not, a +3 maybe. Granted, Highten spell is one of the weaker metamagics, but it's the only one that is easily directly compairable.

I'd say +3, and +5 for improved, because the 3rd roll isn't likely to be quite as good as the 2 rolls, so shouldn't be a +6.

At +1, I don't think there's a spell I would memorize with a save roll that I wouldn't put Baneful on as a Wizard, at +2, I'd have to think a bit more, but still not very likely, but at +3, now you're thinking about it, which is where it should be. You should be thinking "Is this worth it?" and be able to argue either way, that's balance.

At +1, don't forget Dispel Magic cast to where your items need a save. 4th level spell gives you a significantly influenced chance to dispell extra items.

Keep in mind the math.

Normal Fail Chance	Baneful Fail Chance
	10%			19%
	20%			36%
	30%			51%
	40%			64%
	50%			75%
	60%			84%
	70%			91%
	80%			96%
	90%			99%