Metamagic Feats - do you use them?

[Voadam]

I've had a pretty good run with extend spell and persistent spell for my Eldritch knight. Empower would be nice as well, but I'm saving up for a metamagic rod for that one.

I mostly spend my cash on items, item creation, and acquiring new, available in the setting, spells. Then there are the bar tabs.

My EK's time is spent on lore research, item creation, learning acquired spells, networking with NPCs, and bars with loose women. I rarely have the time and resources for what I currently do, let alone work on creating specific new spells. Also the DM is unlikely to let in new spells.

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

So mostly it's a question of flexibility - whether you want the flexibility to modify your spells or if your gm is flexible enough to allow research of the new spells (it's in the rules, it's rather unfair to not allow it - but giving out campaign specific spells or at least allowing the mage to find new spells rather makes up for it)

Mostly it seems that y'all like energy substitution and/or extend spell types. That's fine - I like those too. Great flexibility, applies to a truly wide variety of spells, with limited casting cost - it's ony +1 to +2 to the spells level.

I'm talking about the +4 types of metamagics. The ones that make a first level spell take up a 5th level spell slot. The ones, where if you stack them up, you'll find yourself using a 7th, 8th or 9th level spell slot to cast a modified first level spell.

Now, how many of your 5th through 7th level spell slots are you going to give up to cast a maximized 1st through 3rd level spell? Maybe one or two, if you have one or two nifty things that would benefit greatly from it...

So, if your GM were to allow it, would you rather research for those specific modified low level spells or would you rather spend the feat on it?

And we are not talking about energy substitution, that has a wide range of application for 0 level cost... We're talking +4 or better level cost.

 

[astralpwka]

I happily and always use Maximize and Quicken with my necromancer. As there are a minimal number of spells of the necromancy school that I like to have ready to go, spell selection and sacrifice is easy, especially for the number of spells that have no saving throw.

 

[thatdarncat]

Mostly it seems that y'all like energy substitution and/or extend spell types. That's fine - I like those too. Great flexibility, applies to a truly wide variety of spells, with limited casting cost - it's ony +1 to +2 to the spells level.

I'm talking about the +4 types of metamagics. The ones that make a first level spell take up a 5th level spell slot. The ones, where if you stack them up, you'll find yourself using a 7th, 8th or 9th level spell slot to cast a modified first level spell.

My dueling character (Wiz 7/GMoW 10/Ftr 1/EK 2) has been focusing on item creation feats, but will be starting to take some more metamagic feats. Right now I have energy substitution and another I can't remember off the top of my head. Next feat I take will be "Quicken Spell", though I'm not likely to use it often for prepared spells. Instead I'm intending to make a Quicken Spell rod, and use it that way. Lets me pick and choose what spells I quicken as I need them, instead of planning ahead.

 

[thatdarncat]

I happily and always use Maximize and Quicken with my necromancer. As there are a minimal number of spells of the necromancy school that I like to have ready to go, spell selection and sacrifice is easy, especially for the number of spells that have no saving throw.

Maximized Enevervation (spelling, I'm at work, sorry ). Now there's something that just makes me all warm and tingly inside, especially since I'll also be taking chain spell. Just need a couple more levels and I'll be good

 

[Voadam]

So, if your GM were to allow it, would you rather research for those specific modified low level spells or would you rather spend the feat on it?

And we are not talking about energy substitution, that has a wide range of application for 0 level cost... We're talking +4 or better level cost.

Well one design philospohy is that an optimized combination of spell plus a feat adding up to a certain level is supposed to be a little better than just a straight spell of the same type at that level because the spell plus feat requires more character resources to get. So a reserached spell is likely to be a level higher than the base spell plus feat option or have some other drawback. For instance an empowered fireball at 10th level causes 15d6 while a cone of cold at that level does 10d6 (with a higher save though). The cone doesn't catch up on damage until 15th level caster level.

 

[Trainz]

Oh, Oh, I totally forgot about Ray of Enfeeblement ! I must get it for my sorceror !

An empowered Ray of Enfeeblement is nasty. An empowered-maximised one is devastating. I love no-save spells like this one and scorching ray.

 

[Arnwyn]

...or if your gm is flexible enough to allow research of the new spells (it's in the rules, it's rather unfair to not allow it...)

I'll insert a quick "hogwash", here. The research of new spells is entirely optional, and the DM has no obligation to allow PCs to do it. He could simply say: "stick with the PHB spells".

 

[Storminator]

Oh, Oh, I totally forgot about Ray of Enfeeblement ! I must get it for my sorceror !

An empowered Ray of Enfeeblement is nasty. An empowered-maximised one is devastating. I love no-save spells like this one and scorching ray.

I was just going to point this out. 16 points of STR, no save. Brutal.

Quicken is also really good, but it's for high level characters. Once you can toss out 8th or 9th level spells, the use of a few 5th, 6th, or 7th level slots on low level spells is trivial. As we say to the wizard in our group, if you start needing 5th level spells in combat, we are in a world of hurt.

PS

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

---OT - (topic resumes below)

I'll insert a quick "hogwash", here. The research of new spells is entirely optional, and the DM has no obligation to allow PCs to do it. He could simply say: "stick with the PHB spells".

Hogwash indeed.

I'll never convince you of this, but I agree with you while I simultaneously disagree.

I agree - in that a GM has no obligation to allow the PC's to do ANYTHING the rules say they can - because the GM is the final arbiter.

But if you are a GM who prideth thyself on full rules following...

Independent Research: A wizard also can research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one.

This is also in the PHB and the DMG. None of the three sources indicate any such 'optional' choice, beyond the GM disclaimer I pointed out above.

I'll be happy to cite full references if you want to start a thread in the rules section...

---------Back on topic

So, for high level wizards, metamagic feats are usually not worthwhile. For item creators, they can be so you can make a metamagic rod, or create items that cast spells with metamagic feats.

You do know of course, that you can easily (pending the game environment) get other spellcasters to cast the spells for you, right? A wizard can indeed make a broach of CLW by getting a cleric to assist in casting the spell. Unfortunately, the XP cost is not shared - but this is a topic for a different thred.


If metamagic feats are typically useless to a high level mage, then one should only take them at lower levels IF you know you won't level very high?