Metamagic Feats - do you use them?

[Voadam]

So, for high level wizards, metamagic feats are usually not worthwhile. For item creators, they can be so you can make a metamagic rod, or create items that cast spells with metamagic feats.

You do know of course, that you can easily (pending the game environment) get other spellcasters to cast the spells for you, right? A wizard can indeed make a broach of CLW by getting a cleric to assist in casting the spell. Unfortunately, the XP cost is not shared - but this is a topic for a different thred.


If metamagic feats are typically useless to a high level mage, then one should only take them at lower levels IF you know you won't level very high?

I think high level wizards get good use out of metamagics, more than simply for rod creation.

My 11th caster level EK uses the +4 level persistant spell feat (from T&B and the FRCS) all the time. In our current adventure he has a persistent shield, a persistent cat's grace (he has a ring of evasion he made), and has a persistent mirror image ready for when the second level one is used up after their first fight after they teleport in. In the past I have used it for detect secret doors when dungeon delving without a rogue or an elf, I've used persistent protection from evil when delaing with outsiders, and a persistent anavar's anticipated attack (from BoEMI) when I didn't know what the day would hold and was just blowing time in the city.

I use extend spell on energy buffer (from T&B) and endure elements to get them as free spells every other day.

Quicken spell is only an option for high level wizards, and can save a round in setting up defenses when ambushed (mirror image is a good choice) or allow increased immediate firepower for combats.

 

[JoeBlank]

I can't imagine playing a sorcerer without metamagic feats. Perhaps the difference in opinion is that the OP applies mainly to wizards.

My gnome sorcerer is about the hit 9th level. He currently has sculpt spell and subtle spell (allows a chance to mask casting as ordinary conversation and hand movements) and uses them both frequently. With limited spells known, metamagic feats give sorcerers much needed versatility.

In fact, I think sorcerers should get bonus metamagic feats as wizards get bonus feats. They really make the class.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Well for sorcerers metamagic is useful, with their limited spells known list metamagic can cover holes without the need of learning a spell. I'm mainly thinking of empower here, but I'm sure there are other examples but an empowered fireball can sub for a 5th level attack spell letting you fill that 5th level slot with a defense or utility spell.

For wizards they're somewhat useful, but overall most metamagic feats just suck. Empower is useful, its only +2 spell levels and it allows a damage range you can't get at your level. Most are just lame though, especially in 3.5, though some are 95% lame but really rock in their special circumstance, like silent spell rocks on a D-Door as a silent,grappled silent safety hatch. Its also helps on stealth missions so it aint a totally uselss except in situation X, but usually it just sucks.

Personally while I allow research I wont allow metamagiced spells research. For exmaple why would I allow someone to make a 5th level attack spell that starts at 15d6 when all other attack spells start at 1d6 per level so usually 9-10d6. I might allow some pre-quickened spells though since feather fall is an example of this. But pre-empowered or pre-maximized nope.

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

Fascinating view points. What I'm gathering is that metamagicks are -highly- useful to sorcerors (who arguably should get bonus feats for metamagicks) and moderately useful to highlevel wizards who utilize them in innovative ways, or lack proper spells of the given level.

For others, I'm finding that the feats are 'feat' powerful, but don't always fit in with the character concept, and thus seem to be a weakening thing.

Once again, I return to the drawing board with an ever increasing realization that a mage is a combat engineer - a master of diversity. A high level mage can literally be anything, and fill virtually any niche in a party, usually in a variety of ways.

Heh - thanks for y'alls viewpoints. Once again, my mind is clarified

 

[Storminator]

Metamagics can be useful for druids as well. Empowered Poison... Extended Heat Metal...

PS

 

[Liolel]

As a 7th level druid I do not use metamagic feats. First of all I haven't taken any, and I don't have the high level slots to make them really useful. I don't think I would research new spells instead of using them as I see that as sort of bending the rules and that a metamagic feat gives a lot more options.

 

[thatdarncat]

Once again, I return to the drawing board with an ever increasing realization that a mage is a combat engineer - a master of diversity. A high level mage can literally be anything, and fill virtually any niche in a party, usually in a variety of ways.

That's pretty much how my mages work. Diverse, jack of all trades, able to do many things, though only some of them well. A mage for all seasons

 

[Vanye]

Metamagics can be useful for druids as well. Empowered Poison... Extended Heat Metal...

PS

Technically, an extended heat metal spell is useless except as a shield against a Chill Metal spell. After round 7, you'd get 7 rounds of "warm, no damage". Technically.

When I had a PC cast it, I instead doubled the rounds for each stage, ie stage 1 lasted 2 rounds, stage 2 lasted two rounds, etc, but I don't know how many others would...

 

[Cbas10]

I just LOVE metamagic feats. While only the most powerful spellcasters will have a wide assortment of them, having one or two of the feats can really strengthen your caster in areas he or she is already active within.

Fighting Arcane casters with Still Spell is one of the most useful applications of metamagic. While the number-crunchers out there will obviously point out how much it can render spellcasting levels worthless, Fighter/wizards can easily Scribe their own Still Spells on scrolls. For a rather tiny amount of 188gp and 15XP, such a character can make a Still Bull's Strength scroll that will be lasting 3 minutes. Quite a bit cheaper than 16,000gp to buy the item, and Still Spell is far more useful to this character than Craft Wondrous Item. Not to mention the fact that spellcasting has incredible uses in non-combat aspects of the game.

Any sort of sneaky character with Silent Spell can just be lethal! Without even getting into combat applications, there are hordes of "Detect" spells (arcane as well as divine) that would be VERY handy to have as Silent Spells if one was planning on sneaking somewhere.

I've found that Widen Spell is rarely as useful as most of the others excpet for a couple of situations. Widening combat spells really does not accomplish much unless you are fighting larger numbers of inferior opponents. Otherwise, for characters equal to a level of a caster able to benefit from Widen Spell, opponents might be too tough or too smart to let a Widened Spell get them much. Using Widen Spell in non-combat situations, such as in the creation of Wands or Scrolls, can be VERY handy. Most "Detect" spells can be widened into unfortunately expensive wands; Bane, Bless, and Entangle can really help out in large-scale situations; Light- or Darkness-related spells (especially those that are permanent) are effectively doubled in effect; etc etc etc.

I still Like Persistent and Energy Admixture feats from the Forgotten Realms. They tend to be expensive to use and REALLY force your character to specialize in something, but the rewards are obvious.

Quite possibly the most broken Metamagic feat is the Irresistible Spell feat from the Kalamar Players Guide (not a core book, but just as "official" as Forgotten Realms). For a +4 level adjustment: No Saving Throw. I would gladly fill a 5th level slot for an Irrestistible Charm Person, Sanctuary, or (gulp!) Entangle. For 6th level you can move to Enthrall, Zone of Truth, Detect Thoughts, Blindness/Deafness, or even Web. Going into the damage-dealing spells with this feat will effectively cancel all those annoying Uncanny Dodge abilities flying around.

As for Wizards on their own without multi-classing, the usefulness of Metamagic purely comes down to concept for my character. Wizards and their attempts to do as much damage as possibile to as many enemies as possible can get really boring to me; If I just want to run around and kill crap, I'd play a fighter. The aspect of Wizards (& their metamagic) that I love is the amount of planning and/or strategy involved in knowing what spells to prepare in the morning and how to proplerly ration those spells across the entire day, knowing exactly WHEN they are needed. Depending on the situation, Metamagics will unfortunately make such situations tougher as your lower level spells occupy the higher level slots.

 

[just__al]

The campaign I'm in now started at 12th level. The DM made it clear (when I asked) that he anticipated we wouldn't want or get a lot of down time.

So I took a fair amount of metamagic feats...

Silent Spell
Still Spell
Energy Substitution
Energy Admixture

I didn't take empower because I have a metamagic rod of empower

At 15th level I'm either going to take extend and persistent spell or quicken spell and extend spell.

Right now at 13th level I can cast an admixed fireball for 20d6 which is pretty sweet, I also never "leave the house" without a silent Dimension door and a silent & stilled dispell magic.

It would have been nice to maybe make some items but I really haven't needed them yet and maybe at 15th level I'll take craft staff.