Min/max'ing Rogues!

[Darklone]

Since the "D" in CoDzilla stands for Druid, a Rogue/Druid could also work. There is a feat that allows you to sneak attack will grappling and wildshaped, which is pretty cool.

??? Where does it say that you can't sneak attack while you're wildshaped??? That sneak attack while grappling sounds interesting though.

 

[nittanytbone]

??? Where does it say that you can't sneak attack while you're wildshaped??? That sneak attack while grappling sounds interesting though.

I believe he's referring to Savage Grapple from the complete series (Complete Divine?) that lets you burn a wildshape usage to SA in a grapple.

 

[Darklone]

I believe he's referring to Savage Grapple from the complete series (Complete Divine?) that lets you burn a wildshape usage to SA in a grapple.

Right... Thanks, it's in CAdv.

Nice feat, but still: You can sneak attack in wildshape without any problems.... but reading the post again: Sorry, P-man, I misread your post as "You can't sneak attack normally when wildshaped."

 

[Particle_Man]

No worries.

 

[moritheil]

I personally recommend Telling Blow for any rogue looking to deal more damage, and hereby express my shock that only one person has posted a recommendation for it thus far.

I believe he's referring to Savage Grapple from the complete series (Complete Divine?) that lets you burn a wildshape usage to SA in a grapple.

Looking at Savage Grapple from Complete Adventurer, you do not need to burn a wildshape use to activate the feat - you always deal SA with every grapple check you make when wildshaped. (Presumably, if you are a druid, you will generally want to be wildshaped anyhow during important fights.) It's not really as hot as it seems unless you go right into Daggerspell Shaper to advance both casting and SA . . . which then locks you out of doing other things.

(I'm currently playing a 20th level druid/DsS/DivO. It's not as awesome as it might seem; I only have 3d6 SA as a consequence of having to ensure that I get 9th level spells.)

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

With all the other classes you will be playing with, I would go with 14s across the board, and keep bumping your INT. Getting a +1 in one stat is not worth sacrificing +2 in two others. For a rogue, your skill list is your most important class feature, and the only one that really doesn't benefit from stat boosting items. Your tumble skill will let you use SA more often, which is where the meat of your damage will always come from. UMD will let you increase AoE damage done by your party. Any wands of fireball should go to you.

For feats...
Combat expertise will help you survive in flanking positions with the tanks, which will help all three (four if counting druid) of you maximize damage. Combat reflexes for extra AoOs.

Deft strike (CA) take a standard action spot check vs opponents AC. If you suceed, your next attack ignores armor and natural armor.

Deadeye shot (PHII) take a readied action to make a ranged attack as an allies attack lands. They lose their DEX bonus against your attack.

Telling blow (PHII) Gain SA damage on a crit.

Level 20 is nearly pointless for a rogue, save for skill points, and you could probably survive without level 19. You could take the ubiquitous two levels of fighter, or a level of monk and the asetic rogue feat. Going TWF and tempest will also crank up damage, and AC.

 

[moritheil]

With all the other classes you will be playing with, I would go with 14s across the board, and keep bumping your INT. Getting a +1 in one stat is not worth sacrificing +2 in two others. For a rogue, your skill list is your most important class feature, and the only one that really doesn't benefit from stat boosting items. Your tumble skill will let you use SA more often, which is where the meat of your damage will always come from. UMD will let you increase AoE damage done by your party. Any wands of fireball should go to you.

I'll respectfully disagree with this. I see where Jondor is going - he suggests a jack-of-all-trades build. IME, though, focusing on one or two abilities better enables you to contribute. That is, either be a high-int, high-cha social skillmonkey and rely on UMD in fights, or go for decent int and very good dex to climb combat feat trees.

Combat expertise will help you survive in flanking positions with the tanks, which will help all three (four if counting druid) of you maximize damage. Combat reflexes for extra AoOs.

The problem that rogues tend to have in play is that they can't hit the enemy at all without flanking them and getting the attack bonus (and denying dex.) Combat Expertise is wasted because they can't afford to give up attack bonuses and still have a good shot at hitting the enemy. Of course, this changes if you're playing a rogue/wizard or otherwise can ensure a boost to your attack roll.

Combat Reflexes is a good choice, though, particularly once your AOOs start adding SA.

Deft strike eats up a turn, which I don't like, but if you can't hit the enemy after the surprise round anyway, it's a good feat to have.

Deadeye shot is good when combined with Sniper Shot (assassin spell that allows SA at any distance.)

 

[SadisticFishing]

Does Telling Blow really help that much? A dagger has a 19-20 crit range, and if you're not SA'ing, chances are you're trying to SA next round and won't be able to hurt them very much anyways...

Getting Brilliant Energy Weapons, when you can afford it, means you really don't need to go fighter for the bab, though I can see going 4 levels in and getting melee weapon mastery.. which doesn't apply to thrown daggers, which is bad..

Ranger/Rogue actually makes sense, in an odd way.. almost as many skill points, full BAB, and 2 free feats if you go 2 levels in.. But I dunno.

Hrm, so much to think about. Personally, I would do something like Rogue/Swashbuckler/Invisible Blade (Daring Outlaw), except the Swashbuckler levels don't give Hide/Move Silently as class skills, which could be annoying..

 

[moritheil]

Does Telling Blow really help that much? A dagger has a 19-20 crit range, and if you're not SA'ing, chances are you're trying to SA next round and won't be able to hurt them very much anyways...

You don't use it with daggers. You use it with a rapier and take Improved Critical, then cast corrupt/bless weapon on it so that 1 out of every four attacks is an autoconfirmed critical (threat range 15-20) that you apply SA on. UMD helps with this, but even at 0 ranks of UMD, a sacred scabbard is only 4400 gp and casts bless weapon 3/day.

Getting Brilliant Energy Weapons, when you can afford it, means you really don't need to go fighter for the bab, though I can see going 4 levels in and getting melee weapon mastery.. which doesn't apply to thrown daggers, which is bad..

Conventional wisdom states that Brilliant Energy isn't worth the price. YMMV.

Hrm, so much to think about. Personally, I would do something like Rogue/Swashbuckler/Invisible Blade (Daring Outlaw), except the Swashbuckler levels don't give Hide/Move Silently as class skills, which could be annoying..

That's what Able Learner is for.

 

[Mistwell]

Most people say that there are four basic [edit - combat] archetypes for rogue builds:

1) Two Weapon Fighting (more hits = more sneak attack damage)
2) Spring Attacking (distance = fewer hits on you = live longer)
3) Ranged (distance = fewer hits on you = live longer)
4) Reach (more flanking squares and AOOs = more attacks and sneak attacks)

I think you can build a strong rogue focusing on any of those four choices. You can even combine some, like spring attacking reach, or two weapon fighting and ranged with thrown weapons like daggers or shurikens.

I agree Ranger 2/Rogue X makes some good sense (though not required for a good build). The ranger two weapon fighting or rapid shot feat helps, as does the favored enemy (probably human, which is now allowed even if it is your race, regardless of alignment), two good saves, better hit die, full BAB progression, martial weapon and armor proficiency, spell list that lets you use wands of some very useful rogue-like spells, and even track. Personally, I favor the Urban Ranger varient from Unearthed Arcana and Cityscape.