Min/max'ing Rogues!

[moritheil]

Most people say that there are four basic archetypes for rogue builds:

1) Two Weapon Fighting (more hits = more sneak attack damage)
2) Spring Attacking (distance = fewer hits on you = live longer)
3) Ranged (distance = fewer hits on you = live longer)
4) Reach (more flanking squares and AOOs = more attacks and sneak attacks)

I think you can build a strong rogue focusing on any of those four choices. You can even combine some, like spring attacking reach, or two weapon fighting and ranged with thrown weapons like daggers or shurikens.

Er, those are all combat archetypes. There are also the trapfinder, the UMD abuser, and the front man/intrigue archetype, none of which are particularly focused on combat.

 

[Mistwell]

Er, those are all combat archetypes. There are also the trapfinder, the UMD abuser, and the front man/intrigue archetype, none of which are particularly focused on combat.

I agree. I was talking specifically about combat builds, and should have mentioned that.

 

[IanB]

Level 20 is nearly pointless for a rogue, save for skill points, and you could probably survive without level 19. You could take the ubiquitous two levels of fighter, or a level of monk and the asetic rogue feat. Going TWF and tempest will also crank up damage, and AC.

The main caveat I would insert here is that if you expect the game to go epic, you delay your epic bonus feat progression every time you take a level other than rogue (unless you're hitting level 10 in a prestige class with an epic progression of its own.) Granted, the rogue has a pretty slow epic bonus feat progression, but it is worth remembering in general.

 

[SadisticFishing]

Yeah I very much doubt we're going epic, our attention span isn't - oooooh a plastic bag!!

.. >_>

Alright, see, dual wielding hand crossbows seems cool, but how do you consistently get sneak attack damage with a ranged weapon? There's Deadeye Shot, but you can't do that with DW...

 

[Zaruthustran]

Dual wielding hand crossbows is fun in that you get two ranged attacks at 30' (as opposed to 10' with thrown daggers).

But after that opening barrage, you're stuck. You've got to drop one crossbow to the floor in order to load the other one, and loading takes a Move action. Doh. And if you're going to be shooting a crossbow anyway, why not go with a light crossbow (1d8 vs 1d4)?

If you want a melee monster go rogue3/rng2/ftr4/nightsong enforcer. Layer up Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, and the Spring Attack chain, and just smash things with a two-handed reach weapon. Wear armor spikes so you can TWF with that two-hander (using the 5' step to change range when needed mid-full attack).

If you want a quick sneaky guy, go the spring attack route and stack rogue and scout.

If you want an archer, mutliclass with Warlock. Your bad BAB won't matter if your ranged attacks are all touch attacks. For those cases where a full attack is better, use your bow.

One note: since you've got a druid in the party, you have access to lots of animals (summons and companion). Convince the druid to have his critters always grapple. Each combatant in a grapple loses his Dex bonus, meaning you get to sneak attack. Grappling is a great idea for animals since they can't bypass DR without a spell buff--a spell buff that could be better spent on a real party member, or to summon more animals.

-z

 

[AnonymousOne]

Invisible Blade

Umm bluff as a free action much? Yes thank you!

 

[Jack Simth]

Alright, well, I have a close friend who's playing in the next campaign we're starting up. In the last one, he was a Warlock, and he looked to me for making him super powerful - and I failed =( .... Mostly because he didn't want to use my feat build, and partly because we didn't know how Metaspelllike feats worked, and because I'd never heard of Hellfire Warlock and didn't look very hard.

Anyways, this campaign, he is playing a simple CG Rogue, and I'm looking for ways to make him own.

His stats are: (32 point buy, tell me if he got them wrong - I would have done it slightly differently, but he doesn't really listen to me heh)

12, 16, 14, 14, 10, 12.

For feats, I was thinking; H: Weapon Finesse, 1: Two-Weapon Fighting, 3: Weapon Focus (Dagger), 6: Improved Initiative... But I'm not sure where to go from there. Disembowling Strike (CSco) actually seems rather interesting, Dual Strike (CAdv) looks okay too, move actions are always fun...

But "How can I max his damage output?" is the real question of the day, and any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

Oh if it helps at all, the part is: Druid (me), Paladin, Knight (warforged, this should be fun), and Sorceress.

Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha?

I'll treat that as Fixed, for now.

I'll give you a Core build, just for grins
Taking that as-is....

1) Max ranks in UMD (at least until you can make the Use Wand check on a nat-1)
2) Max ranks in Tumble (until you reach the point where you can make the check for two opponents on natural 1's)
Feats:
1) Two-Weapon Fighting
H) Two-Weapon Defense
3) Quick Draw (or Weapon Finess)
6) Weapon Finess (or Quickdraw)
9) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
12) Improved Initiative (or Combat Expertise)
15) Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
18) Combat Expertise (or Improved Initiative)

Some key items you'll want (in addition to the standard items, of course; potion of Invisibility, potion of Fly, item of Dimension Door/Teleport, extradimensional storeage, Gauntlets of Dexterity, Cloak of Resistence, and so on), in about order you'll want to pick them up (if you can get them sooner, go for it):
Two Shortswords
Bandolier to hold lots of flasks in quickdraw capable locations
Lots of Flasks of Acid
Lots of potions of Alchemist's Fire
Wand of Acid Splash
Wand of Chill Touch (highest caster level available)
Wand of Produce Flame (highest caster level available; Extended if possible; you want the Druid version)
Wand of Grease
Wand of Greater Invisibility

You've got a couple of basic strategies:

Flasks of Acid:
Thrown at a flat-footed opponent. They're attacks, so they are sneak attack capable. As thrown weapons, they automatically use your Dex modifier. They're touch attacks, so your attack bonus mostly doesn't matter. This gets tasty fast. Slightly pricy, though; Flasks of Flasks of Acid 10 gp per attack market, but each attack expends one - period. The splash damage is gravy, but do remember it. They're expended when thrown, which is why you need Quick Draw.

Alchemist's Fire:
See Flasks of Acid, only they're 20 gp per attack. They do an extra d6 of fire damage the next round, though.

Wand of Acid Splash:
It's a cantrip, caster level 1. Mostly, it's used as a vehicle for your sneak attack when you'll only get one attack in anyway. It's a touch attack, so you don't need to worry about your attack bonus too much. Caster level 1, 7.5 gp/charge, market.

Wand of Chill Touch:
This spell is selected because it has multiple charges, based on caster level, with no limit. You want at least as high a caster level on your wand as you get attacks in a round; ideally you'll want double that. You can hold the charge indefinately, so they don't go wasted unless you find you need to touch something. It's the melee version of Flasks of Acid - this is for when you're flanking. 1d6 touch attacks, with the potential for strength damage (DC 11, not likely, but possible). If your DM permits, you two-weapon fight just with the Chill Touch charges; otherwise, you argue that you can use a shortsword in your other hand at no cost other than standard TWF penalties (seeing as how the energy isn't channeling through that hand) and two-weapon fight that way. Market Price 15 gp/attack (due to the way charges work for the item, the price per attack is independant of caster level). As an added bonus, this gives you something to do vs. undead (it's an easy will save DC 11, but when you're forcing several saves per round, well...).

Wand of Produce Flame:
See Wand of Chill Touch - as an added benefit, you can throw them. Produce Flame is an Effect spell with a duration, so you don't need to worry about the clause of touching things discharging the spell regardless. This means you can potentially have two of them running (one on each palm) or have a shortsword in your off hand without arguing with your DM too much. 15 gp per attack, but they come in groups and you can't hold them forever.

Wand of Grease:
There's this nifty clause in Grease - it forces Balance checks. There's this nifty clause in the Balance skill: If you don't have at least five ranks in Balance, you're considered flat-footed when Balancing. Almost nothing has actual ranks in Balance. This makes many critters sneak-attackable after the first round without worrying about being in melee range for flanking. Duration is one round/level.

Wand of Greater Invisibility:
The use should be obvious enough - opponents are denied their Dexterity bonus to AC when they can't see you, opening them up for sneak attacks.

You've got three "elements" available - Acid, Fire, and Negative Energy. Select one based on your opponent - most will usually be subject to at least one of them. The shortswords are primarily backup weapons, don't invest in them too heavily.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Umm bluff as a free action much? Yes thank you!

I tried invisible blade. You don't get the bluff as a free action for a significant while, especially if you take 1-3 levels in fighter or swashbuckler first (which helps alot). Feignting really isn't that good -- enemies add their BAB to the opposed roll, and most melee monsters have obscene BAB for their CR -- and can only be used in melee, where there are tons of other ways to get SA damage. I was doing the TWF dagger rogue, and gave up after 2 or 3 levels in and went with master thrower.

I cannot praise that class enough! Trip Shot lets you make every throw a trip attempt in addition to damage, plus you get to use dex instead of dtrength on the roll, plus I don't think you suffer any modifiers for size. Of course, the level 5 ability for that class which makes your throws against touch AC is awesome, but not even needed, if you want more sneak attack.

Staggering Strike is a great feat for any rogue, as is Savvy Rogue. Savvy Rogue improves rogue special abilities. My personal favorites: Crippling Strike - deal the str damage even on creatures that can't be sneak attacked!; Opportunist - only limited by AOOs and once per opponent per round. Mix in Crippling Strike and Staggering Strike for added sexiness.; Skill Mastery - Take 12!

For a ranged rogue not using throwing, the best advice I can give is to beg the DM to allow Quicker than the Eye from the 3.0 Song and Silence. For a move action, you make a bluff check opposed by Spot. If you win, your next attack that round is a sneak attack. Sometimes, especially against high-DR enemies, it's worth giving up a full attack for that. If your DM doesn't allow it, strive for a ring of blinking. All attacks are sneak attacks, but 20% chance to auto-miss. Finally, there are ranger and sor/wiz spells out there that let you do a ranged sneak attack at any distance for one round. And I think there's a feat to get sneak attack on a favored enemy even if they couldn't normally be sneak attacked, so a one level dip into ranger for the ability to SA undead may be worth it.

For melee rogues, get a grapple buddy. Have the summoner bring in flanking buddies. Even better is Persistent Blade, a level 1 sor/wiz spell. Does poor force damage (1d4 + 1/2 int or cha mod.), but it grants flanking to any ally who attacks the enemy. Taking the Martial Study feat for Sudden Leap gives you an easy way to get into melee and full-attack, or full attakc and then safely retreat w/ a DC 15 tumble check (It lets you do a standing jump as a swift action). There's a cheap pair of boots in MIC that likewise allow you to cheese the full attack / safe retreat goodness, this time by letting you take an extra 5 foot step 3 times a day. Granted this is better for scouts, but still good. If you don't need the boot slot for anything else, buy multiple pairs and change them between combats.

The most critical thing for rogues in general is to quickly find a way to avoid miss chances, as any miss chance at all kills SA. There are level 1 spells that can do this! If an archer rogue, a seeking bow is a quick fix. The clarity of Vision skill trick can help for a round.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Wand of Grease:
There's this nifty clause in Grease - it forces Balance checks. There's this nifty clause in the Balance skill: If you don't have at least five ranks in Balance, you're considered flat-footed when Balancing. Almost nothing has actual ranks in Balance. This makes many critters sneak-attackable after the first round without worrying about being in melee range for flanking. Duration is one round/level.

Wow, I never noticed that! Thanks! I usually just put up a persistent balde for the party rogue, but I also know grease and have been looking for new ways to use it. Also, his nasty full attack plus me sculpting the grease into four cubes should be awesome!

Also, as for his ability scores, I'm pretty sure those were just the numbers, to be arranged as he sees fit. I'd go with as many 14's as possible. After 14, the point buy gets more expensive, and Rogues have serious MAD anyway. I'm actually starting to think they have it worse than monks if you want to both do social skills and combat (Of course the standard search, disable, open lock, etc... are expected from the party no matter what direction you want to go).

 

[Darklone]

Dual wielding hand crossbows is fun in that you get two ranged attacks at 30' (as opposed to 10' with thrown daggers).

But after that opening barrage, you're stuck. You've got to drop one crossbow to the floor in order to load the other one, and loading takes a Move action. Doh. And if you're going to be shooting a crossbow anyway, why not go with a light crossbow (1d8 vs 1d4)?

Something I posted in another thread... Rapid Reload is what you need, then you don't have to change the Xbows.
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3524775&postcount=19

Far Shot is actually worth it for double handXbows... yet I'd rather go Rgr/Sco/Rog human with Swift Ambusher and Swift Hunter (to sneak attack pesky undead). You're pretty flexible, full attack actions hurt if your Dex is high enough and you got the mentioned wands, even if you don't get to sneak attack. And if someone tries to grap you in melee, you can still move away and enjoy your Skirmish damage.

The real shooter is a ftr4/rogX with Weapon Spec... at least that way you can take all the feats you need. Daring Outlaw plus Daring Warrior with Swashbuckler3 and 4 fighter levels (rest rogue) is nice as well... some good sneak attack damage and still Ranged Weapon Mastery!