It is only over powered early on because of the bag of HP early levels but at a certain CR you have only the elephant. Once the harder monster come along they start to level off real quick because while they have a ton of HP's the lower AC gets them hit more often. I have one in the current campaign and he is far from over powered
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D&D 5E Monk and Druid "reviews"
- Thread starter Gilbetron
- Start date
It is only over powered early on because of the bag of HP early levels but at a certain CR you have only the elephant. Once the harder monster come along they start to level off real quick because while they have a ton of HP's the lower AC gets them hit more often. I have one in the current campaign and he is far from over powered
Chaosmancer
Legend
The one thing I didn't see talked about was what I ran into, wildshaping into an elemental.
Turning into a fire elemental meant the parties druid didn't even need to attack, he'd walk into enemies to catch them on fire, then do two touch attacks which also could catch them on fire. And Elementals have some rather significant hp.
Now, granted, it costs two uses of wildshape so cuts down on the ability to use other shapes later on, but it is really quite powerful.
Turning into a fire elemental meant the parties druid didn't even need to attack, he'd walk into enemies to catch them on fire, then do two touch attacks which also could catch them on fire. And Elementals have some rather significant hp.
Now, granted, it costs two uses of wildshape so cuts down on the ability to use other shapes later on, but it is really quite powerful.
Eltab
Lord of the Hidden Layer
A monk at lower levels has to remember that he is a "Fisher Battlecruiser" - he has speed and a strong punch but not armor so he WILL get hurt if Team Monster strikes back.
My experience: for all intents and purposes, Attack (shortsword) + Martial Arts = single attack with Advantage to-hit. I always felt like 1 of 2 blows would land but rarely both; otoh rarely did I miss twice, so I always accomplished something.
Monks give their foes the Death of 1000 Cuts. You have no one-hit-KO option. (So m/c Rogue1 ? - for Sneak Attack on your shortsword)
A fellow player with Monk3 was having fun showing off Catch Arrows - he managed to throw one back for a hit - until the DM decided to concentrate archery fire on him. Catch Arrows uses your reaction, so you can only do it once before your next turn.
I haven't gotten to L5 (Extra Attack / Stunning Fist) yet. By reputation, you become a 'status-effect striker', leaving helpless foes for your friends to take down.
My experience: for all intents and purposes, Attack (shortsword) + Martial Arts = single attack with Advantage to-hit. I always felt like 1 of 2 blows would land but rarely both; otoh rarely did I miss twice, so I always accomplished something.
Monks give their foes the Death of 1000 Cuts. You have no one-hit-KO option. (So m/c Rogue1 ? - for Sneak Attack on your shortsword)
A fellow player with Monk3 was having fun showing off Catch Arrows - he managed to throw one back for a hit - until the DM decided to concentrate archery fire on him. Catch Arrows uses your reaction, so you can only do it once before your next turn.
I haven't gotten to L5 (Extra Attack / Stunning Fist) yet. By reputation, you become a 'status-effect striker', leaving helpless foes for your friends to take down.
Cyan Wisp
Explorer
Sorry, my fault. I came here from google, not the forums. Didn't even look at the dates!
It makes perfect sense; assuming you understand the definition of floor in a mathematical context. The spell only impact the minimum possible AC a character could have. It doesn't boost the base AC; it doesn't provide a bonus. It explicitly states that the character's ac can not be less than 16. If the character's AC is greater than or equal to 16 without the spell, it remains the same. If the character's AC is less than 16 without the spell; it becomes 16.
The characters Dex bonus applies for determining the AC without the spell; it is not cumulative with the spell because the spell doesn't grant a bonus, it only sets the floor. The spell is written this way to allow druids, who are limited to non-metal armor, to have ok AC without prioritizing dex, while simultaneously preventing druids from pumping Dex and having 21-23 AC at level 4.
In my opinion, any misinterpretation of the wording is an intentional attempt to game the rules; and should be considered at best a house rule.
FormerlyHemlock
Hero
On Moon Druids:
Moon Druids are excellent, excellent team players with great spells, melee capability, and no stat dependency at all.
On AC: I've seen a lot of discussion on this thread about Barkskin, a 2nd level spell which lasts for one hour with concentration and gives you AC 16+. I've seen no discussion about Mage Armor, a 1st level spell which lasts for eight hours and gives you an AC generally between 14 and 18. (CR 1 Giant Hyena gets AC 15, and so does the excellent CR 2 Giant Anaconda^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Constrictor Snake. Air Elemental at level 10 gets AC 18.) Mage Armor generally stretches your temp HP by an extra 25% or so, which could be like having an extra 50 HP over the course of a day. Very worthwhile for a 1st level spell. If only you were acquainted with a wizard who knew that spell...
Hilariously awesome partnership: a Mobile Sentinel Moon Druid rhinoceros being ridden by a Mounted Combatant Paladin/Warlock. If the enemy closes to melee range, paladin hits them with Booming Blade (probably at advantage), then the rhino hits them again and rides away (because Booming Blade). If they don't close, paladin blasts them with Eldritch Blast, and then the rhino charges them for extra damage (4d8+5 total), or just lets the paladin kill them with impunity. If the enemy ever manages to close to melee range and attack, they have to attack the paladin's AC, and the Moon Druid hits them (because Sentinel) with a reaction attack because of it.
On spells: there are two kinds of Moon Druids in theory, those with crummy stats and those with good stats. In practice I've only ever seen Moon Druids with crummy stats, because good stats turn into other classes, but if you for some reason were playing a Moon Druid with decent Wisdom (16ish), you might be tempted to cast Entangle before you shift to bear/wolf/snake/etc. form. Having a restrained enemy who needs to waste his actions trying to break free will boost your party damage output and simultaneously stretch your beast HP further. It costs you one round of attacks, but you can still move into position to tank with opportunity attacks. If you don't have decent Wisdom, you're likely to stick to non-stat-dependent spells, of which the Moon Druid has lots of awesome ones: Pass Without Trace, Spike Growth, Conjure Animals are all stand-outs. Polymorph can be pretty good too, depending.
There are those who say the Moon Druid is great for level 2 and then fades. That's not my experience. A Mobile Moon Druid stays relevant all game long (even if his stat array is only 10, 11, 10, 13, 9, 8), and he experiences major jumps in power on a regular basis. Conjure Elemental, Conjure Animals V, Planar Binding, Anti-life Shell, Transport Via Plants, Reverse Gravity, Regenerate, Animale Shapes, Antipathy/Sympathy, Shapechange, Foresight... these are all great spells, and unlike a wizard who has to choose only 4 spells per spell level, a druid knows them all automatically.
On feats: I always want Resilient (Con) and Mobile eventually, and sometimes Lucky. Other than that I don't care (and haven't played a Moon Druid to high enough levels to get the full six feats anyway) but would probably just boost Wisdom by +6 (probably Wisdom 18-20). Mobile is fantastic for an Earth Elemental with Earth Glide. Also, if you read the text of Mobile closely, it works with melee spell attacks as well, of which Contagion is one... so theoretically at 20th level (when you get Archdruid componentless casting) you can strafe the enemy from the air (Air Elemental or Giant Eagle/etc.) or beneath their feet (Earth Elemental), afflicting them with diseases on each round until finally they succumb to Slimy Doom or Flesh Rot, without them ever being able to retaliate. Even before 20th level you could do this in druid form, I just think doing it from below the ground Tremors-style is cooler.
Also, Sentinel can grant a Moon Druid a use for his reaction even in beast form--it's good for action economy.
Moon Druids are excellent, excellent team players with great spells, melee capability, and no stat dependency at all.
On AC: I've seen a lot of discussion on this thread about Barkskin, a 2nd level spell which lasts for one hour with concentration and gives you AC 16+. I've seen no discussion about Mage Armor, a 1st level spell which lasts for eight hours and gives you an AC generally between 14 and 18. (CR 1 Giant Hyena gets AC 15, and so does the excellent CR 2 Giant Anaconda^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Constrictor Snake. Air Elemental at level 10 gets AC 18.) Mage Armor generally stretches your temp HP by an extra 25% or so, which could be like having an extra 50 HP over the course of a day. Very worthwhile for a 1st level spell. If only you were acquainted with a wizard who knew that spell...
Hilariously awesome partnership: a Mobile Sentinel Moon Druid rhinoceros being ridden by a Mounted Combatant Paladin/Warlock. If the enemy closes to melee range, paladin hits them with Booming Blade (probably at advantage), then the rhino hits them again and rides away (because Booming Blade). If they don't close, paladin blasts them with Eldritch Blast, and then the rhino charges them for extra damage (4d8+5 total), or just lets the paladin kill them with impunity. If the enemy ever manages to close to melee range and attack, they have to attack the paladin's AC, and the Moon Druid hits them (because Sentinel) with a reaction attack because of it.
On spells: there are two kinds of Moon Druids in theory, those with crummy stats and those with good stats. In practice I've only ever seen Moon Druids with crummy stats, because good stats turn into other classes, but if you for some reason were playing a Moon Druid with decent Wisdom (16ish), you might be tempted to cast Entangle before you shift to bear/wolf/snake/etc. form. Having a restrained enemy who needs to waste his actions trying to break free will boost your party damage output and simultaneously stretch your beast HP further. It costs you one round of attacks, but you can still move into position to tank with opportunity attacks. If you don't have decent Wisdom, you're likely to stick to non-stat-dependent spells, of which the Moon Druid has lots of awesome ones: Pass Without Trace, Spike Growth, Conjure Animals are all stand-outs. Polymorph can be pretty good too, depending.
There are those who say the Moon Druid is great for level 2 and then fades. That's not my experience. A Mobile Moon Druid stays relevant all game long (even if his stat array is only 10, 11, 10, 13, 9, 8), and he experiences major jumps in power on a regular basis. Conjure Elemental, Conjure Animals V, Planar Binding, Anti-life Shell, Transport Via Plants, Reverse Gravity, Regenerate, Animale Shapes, Antipathy/Sympathy, Shapechange, Foresight... these are all great spells, and unlike a wizard who has to choose only 4 spells per spell level, a druid knows them all automatically.
On feats: I always want Resilient (Con) and Mobile eventually, and sometimes Lucky. Other than that I don't care (and haven't played a Moon Druid to high enough levels to get the full six feats anyway) but would probably just boost Wisdom by +6 (probably Wisdom 18-20). Mobile is fantastic for an Earth Elemental with Earth Glide. Also, if you read the text of Mobile closely, it works with melee spell attacks as well, of which Contagion is one... so theoretically at 20th level (when you get Archdruid componentless casting) you can strafe the enemy from the air (Air Elemental or Giant Eagle/etc.) or beneath their feet (Earth Elemental), afflicting them with diseases on each round until finally they succumb to Slimy Doom or Flesh Rot, without them ever being able to retaliate. Even before 20th level you could do this in druid form, I just think doing it from below the ground Tremors-style is cooler.
Also, Sentinel can grant a Moon Druid a use for his reaction even in beast form--it's good for action economy.
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*shrugs* Don't be sorry. there's nothing wrong with it; and if you've got something more to say, then you should say it. I was just kinda shocked / amused.
FormerlyHemlock
Hero
Unlike some forums, Enworld has nothing in the Forum Rules (that I could find) about thread necro. On some forums like GITP, thread necro can get you banned eventually, though I have no idea why.
So anyway, yeah, what Mephista said. If you have something to say, feel free to speak up.
CapnZapp
Legend
No, the spell wording does not make sense any way. This has been hashed over multiple times. Please do not beat a dead horse.
Feel free to interpret it any way you wish, just don't piss all over the people that aren't interpretating it your way by attempting to insult them. That will end badly.
Sacrosanct
Legend
While I agree it does make sense, I don't think people who have interpreted it a different way do it intentionally. They could be doing it just in error.
There's really only one way to interpret it, from a logical order of operations standpoint. Any time something says "can't be less than", then everything to the left of the "<" part of the equation is completed first. As you say, it sets the floor after every other factor (armor, shields, spells, DEX, etc) has been accounted for. As written, it is literally the last step in calculating AC. Whether or not the devs intended that, I don't know. All I know is that from a literal logical mathematical process, it's pretty clear how it's written.
It's like this, if I were to code it (simplified overview):
Variables a-z = the various factors that make up AC (a=armor, b=DEX, c=shield, d=spell, etc)
AC = the sum of a:z
If AC < 16, THEN AC= 16
It's not really a matter of opinion or interpretation any more than 5*2-5 = X is. I.e., there's only one way of doing it. If someone does 5*2 first, then subtracts 5 from that, that's the right way. You can't really tell them, "It's just your interpretation. I interpret it as 2-5 first, then multiply that by 5."
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