D&D 5E Monk and Druid "reviews"

[Eejit]

4e is quite bad, I suggest looking at
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1pdYIcfHauwNDM2My1XeWFYSDA/view

I quite like it, though Fangs of the Fire Snake has its range unnecessarily reduced from +10 reach to +5.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

4e is quite bad, I suggest looking at
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1pdYIcfHauwNDM2My1XeWFYSDA/view

Wait, what? When did 4e enter the discussion? Or was that just an incredibly unfortunate typo?

 

[Mephista]

4e is quite bad, I suggest looking at
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1pdYIcfHauwNDM2My1XeWFYSDA/view

Hmmm.... interesting idea. Did you do this? Its well written.

Some thoughts - I feel there should be an option for either going full out with a single element, or playing with the idea of "Master of all Four." This particular redesign focuses primarily on the latter, especially with the cantrips.

I thought part of the design of the subclass was that the ki-points were too expensive? It seems like everything is still casting spells that use ki? Well, not everything - there's a pair of jumping abilities that don't, the one earth-dodge one, and the ice-trail one, and the reroll 1s one. That still feels like an overwhelming focus on being a ki-casting magician.

 

[TwoSix]

Wait, what? When did 4e enter the discussion? Or was that just an incredibly unfortunate typo?

4e as in 4 elements monk. And yes, I also thought incredibly random drive-by edition war as first.

Edit 1: That being said, the link provided is an extremely well-done upgrade of the elemental monk. Kudos for the link.

Edit 2: Reading to the end, I see this was done by a group on GiantITP, so I feel pretty comfortable trusting its balance. There are a lot of smart homebrewers over there.

 

[ZickZak]

Hmmm.... interesting idea. Did you do this? Its well written.

I thought part of the design of the subclass was that the ki-points were too expensive? It seems like everything is still casting spells that use ki? Well, not everything - there's a pair of jumping abilities that don't, the one earth-dodge one, and the ice-trail one, and the reroll 1s one. That still feels like an overwhelming focus on being a ki-casting magician.

No I didnt. It s on giantitp & reddit.

Everything uses Ki, but instead of lvl +1 it is now only level. So Burning Hands cost 1, instead of 2, which puts it roughly on pair with EK & AT archetypes. Slot-wise.

 

[Gimul]

Hmmm...it specifically says that concentration spells are maintained, that seems to be something that implies it works in shape change form. A Druid's physical stats are strength, dexterity, and constitution, so that's neither here nor there; and barkskin is not armor, so that does not seem to apply. The wording of the spell says it sets the AC at a minimum of 16. 16 is greater than the brown bear's 11, therefore the AC is 16. There is a raging discussion about this spell in another thread, but there is a strong contingent that asserts that the spell, as written, would not grant dex bonus to AC, or cover bonus, or even the benefit of a shield. I guess the lesson here is that Barkskin is poorly written, but that is no great revelation.

And, from what I've heard, the focus of the "Moon Circle Druid is Overpowered" argument is that they get the bear (and other, almost as powerful shapes) at 2nd level. Sure, by 5th level everything seems fine, but it is at levels 2-4 or so that the problem manifests. I have heard it said that a simple fix for the perceived issue is to not allow 1/2 CR forms until 4th or 5th level, and start the druid out with 1/4 CR forms, but that would have to be play tested.

RAW & RAI are clear in that barkskin carries over into bear form. If a barkskined druid shapeshift into a bear their AC would be 16 while the spell was active.

RAW & RAI are clear in that a barkskined target benefits from Dex mod, armor (worn or natural) and shield. However, those benefits are not cumulative with the spell.

The spell is not poorly worded. It does not add to the targets AC; it sets a floor for the targets AC. In other words, the targets AC is calculated as normal and if that number is less than 16; the targets AC becomes 16. If its AC is above 16, the spell has no affect (unless it is still active and the targets AC then drops below 16).

 

[Gimul]

did you not read the part where two other melee types were also downed in the fighting? the truth is that the ease of which a druid can assume forms throws their survivability way out of sync with other party members, even ones focused purely on HP. why should the druid get to steal the barb's thunder like that? even restricting the two forms to a minute between would do a lot to help.

Having run campaigns featuring druids and barbarians; I have not found this to be the case.

The Druid has 2 pools of essentially temp hp. Barbarians are taking half damage. Fighters have high AC and second wind. Paladins and clerics have high AC and heals. All frontline builds have tools to survive on the frontline.


If any of these stand out, it a raged barbarian, or fighter with a barbarian dip, supported by in combat heals.

 

[Magil]

4e is quite bad, I suggest looking at
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1pdYIcfHauwNDM2My1XeWFYSDA/view

While 4th edition DnD may have had its issues, I preferred its very clear way of stating how effects worked and interacted with each other. That way I don't have DMs who try to completely screw over a central druid feature by claiming that barksin stops working when you use Wild Shape

(Yes, I know you weren't actually talking about 4th edition DnD, but it was a good segue into taking a shot at the player-hating DM mindset).

I would tend to agree with the posters that--regardless of barkskin continuing to affect the druid when it wild shapes, the moon druid's survivability gets talked up to sound better than it actually works in practice. The wild shape feature does not scale well (it should probably be druid level/2 rather than /3). With that said, the moon druid is still a full caster and it's hard to say that a character that gets access to 3rd level spells at 5th level, 4th level spells at 7th level, and so on is in any way underpowered. You simply need to be aware that it's not always going to be a good idea to use wild shape. And be aware that the alternative archetype, the land druid, has very lackluster and situational benefits aside from its circle spells and Natural Recovery.

 

[Gadget]

RAW & RAI are clear in that barkskin carries over into bear form. If a barkskined druid shapeshift into a bear their AC would be 16 while the spell was active.

I agree, but others (as demonstrated by this thread and others) do not.

RAW & RAI are clear in that a barkskined target benefits from Dex mod, armor (worn or natural) and shield. However, those benefits are not cumulative with the spell.

The spell is not poorly worded. It does not add to the targets AC; it sets a floor for the targets AC. In other words, the targets AC is calculated as normal and if that number is less than 16; the targets AC becomes 16. If its AC is above 16, the spell has no affect (unless it is still active and the targets AC then drops below 16).

The spell is poorly worded, as it makes no sense when interacting with non-armor portions of AC. Why wouldn't dex bonus stack with barkskin? Why wouldn't picking up a shield after casting the spell increase the target's AC further? And most tellingly, why wouldn't getting behind cover stack with this? I can sort see reasons for this from a game balance perspective, but it makes it really hard to wrap your head around from an in world perspective and I am by no means a hard core stimulationist. To complicate matters further, one of the devs stated on twitter back in the day that he would certainly allow Barkskin and using a shield to stack, though I don't believe this is an 'official' Sage ruling.

"the target’s AC can’t be less than 16, regardless of what kind of armor it is wearing."

The reference to armor in the quote could very easily be interpreted as replacing the armor component of AC if less than 16 and leaving the other AC components alone. They would have been far better off taking a page from Mage Armor and set the target's base AC to X+ Dex bonus and noting that it does not stack with armor.

 

[SailorNash]

When in doubt, Druid. You've got attack, utility, and survivability within both your forms and your spell list. Guidance and Shillelagh in particular open up a lot of options. You can afford to dump more into your mental scores because of Wildshape, and you can just pick up skills you'd like from feat or from race. It's my preferred "jack of all trades" over even the Bard.

Druid seems borderline-unfair at some levels, and with one of those coming so early (Bear at 2nd) they get a lot of flak. But actually playing one, it's significantly less powerful when you're still using that same form several levels later. Also, with other tanks picking up plate, high HP buffers don't seem much better than shrugging off the blows entirely. Same with Multiattack versus Extra Attack. Different mechanic to accomplish the same.

Biggest downsides for me was fewer RP options when you're not allowed to speak, and for the most part no longer caring about magical treasure? Since you're so self-sufficient, you'll uncover a magic dagger or something and dismissively pass it on to whoever needs it the most. Druids don't really need a power boost, but it's slightly disappointing when everyone else starts getting Christmas presents and you're feeling a little left out.

For Monks? I've only played it once, but played with one in almost every session. They seem great at lower level due to the extra strike, but I'm not sure how long that stays ahead of the curve. Open Hand seems the toughest and the most Monk-y, while Shadow plays more like a Rogue with different mechanics.

What I've found is that Monk requires a pretty lenient DM to play properly. If you describe flipping off a building and they shrug and say "with Advantage, I guess" it won't be much fun. But if they geek out when you're describing hitting someone with the Macho Man big elbow and they roll with it, you can easily be the star of the table.

Biggest downside for me there was that you're almost forced into being a Karate striker, without options to be the Aikido or Judo master. I took Rogue 1 just to get Expertise in Athletics for grappling purposes...something of an oversight in the base class, and even that's partially redundant with the Acrobatics you'll likely also have.