Monks Using On Hit Weapons

[Trit One-Ear]

One of my new players s rolling up a half-Orc Monk to start I our new session tomorrow and approached me with a question. He wants to use a Bloodclaw Club as his weapon/implement, which has a "when you ht with this weapon" ability. We're both wondering if this only applies to powers with the weapon keyword (which for him would only be his MBA) or if he could also benefit on powers which use the club as an implement.

I'm leaning towards allowing it, otherwise it cuts out a large number of weapons that would no longer be appealing to him. What're your thoughts?

Trit

 

[the Jester]

Unfortunately, he needs powers with the Weapon keyword to make using a weapon worthwhile.

He may want to look into ki foci; that's the ticket for a monk.

 

[nogray]

I agree with your assessment, Trit. The "Hit" powers and properties on items really don't have anything to do with the Weapon and Implement keywords, just with whether or not the item was used and the power with which it was used hit or not.

Edit to add: Monks are explicitly proficient with two sorts of implements: Ki focuses, and any "weapons with which [they are] proficient." The Compendium has this to say about using weapons as implements (emphasis added):

If an adventurer is able to use a weapon as an implement, the weapon works like a normal implement, but the adventurer uses neither the weapon’s proficiency bonus nor its nonmagical weapon properties with his or her implement powers. For example, if a weapon has the high crit property, that property does not work with implement powers if the weapon can be used as an implement.

When an adventurer uses a magic version of the weapon as an implement, he or she can use the magic weapon’s enhancement bonus, critical hit effects, properties, and powers. However, some magic weapons have properties and powers that work only with weapon powers. Also, a weapon’s range and damage dice are usually irrelevant to an implement power, since such a power has its own range and damage expression.

The note about some having properties and powers that only work with weapon powers is true, but it doesn't apply to this particular case. The Staggering Weapon has a property that reads, "when you use a power with the weapon keyword that slides a target ...." That is the sort of verbiage needed to exclude implement powers from benefiting from powers and properties on a weapon.

 

[Ferghis]

I initially thought it was a range issue, but keyword sounds more plausible. In either case - whatever RAW might be - I think allowing your player to use these weapons will only make the game more fun for him or her.

 

[Trit One-Ear]

I'm allowing him to use it at the moment. I really don't foresee any balance issues, and he's expressed it as key to his character concept to use a big stick. No problem with that.

As far as RAW go, here's exactly what the Monk description says

You can also use a weapon with which you’re proficient as an implement. When wielding the weapon as an implement, the weapon’s characteristics—proficiency bonus, damage die, and weapon properties like defensive or high crit—are irrelevant to your implement powers.

If you have both a magic ki focus and a magic weapon, you choose before you use an attack power whether to draw on the magic of the ki focus or the weapon. Your choice determines which enhancement bonus, critical hit effects, and magic item properties and powers you can apply to that power. You can’t, for example, use the enhancement bonus of your ki focus and the critical hit effect of your magic weapon with the same attack.

The first section makes perfect sense to me, and makes it sound like you can't use such abilities. That is until I read the second paragraph. It does say "any magic properties and powers" so methinks that's gives it the a-ok. Correct?

Trit

 

[radja]

a wizard can use a weapon-enchanted staff just fine as an implement, and benefit from its powers/properties/etcetera. I don't see why a monk would be restricted to only powers with the weapon keyword. I say let him use it. There shouldn't be any balance problems, and it's more fun for the player.

 

[Nichwee]

Using a weapon as an implement, with a power with the implement keyword, counts as "attacking with that weapon".
If you hit it counts as "hitting with the weapon".

It does not count as "hitting with a weapon power with this weapon", or "hitting with a melee power with this weapon" etc.

But for generic "hitting with the weapon" then an implement power is fine as long as the weapon is an implement you are profiecient with and the power has a "hit" mechanic. I checked this out well with my Spiral Tower Wizard (longsword = implement) and I get bonuses like "Eladrin Soldier"'s bonus to damage rolls for hitting with a longsword - ditto the Save Penalty of the Cunning Weapon applies (or did unless they errated recently) as it says "people affected by a save ends effect caused by a power using this weapon take" (or similar wording).

So unless the magic of a weapon specifically says it is limited to weapon attacks/powers or some other kind of restricted type of power (such as Fighter powers or basic melee attacks, etc) then it works fine when the weapon is used as an implement for an implement keyworded power.

 

[nogray]

It does not count as "hitting with a weapon power with this weapon", or "hitting with a melee power with this weapon" etc.

Right on the first count, but the second depends on the range of the power. It is quite possible to have a melee implement power, as many of the Monk's are. You are still hitting with a melee power with the weapon, even if it is a (melee) implement power. At least, that's how I read it.

 

[Trit One-Ear]

Right on the first count, but the second depends on the range of the power. It is quite possible to have a melee implement power, as many of the Monk's are. You are still hitting with a melee power with the weapon, even if it is a (melee) implement power. At least, that's how I read it.

Makes sense to me. How does this work with Burst or Blast powers then?

Trit

 

[Nichwee]

Right on the first count, but the second depends on the range of the power. It is quite possible to have a melee implement power, as many of the Monk's are. You are still hitting with a melee power with the weapon, even if it is a (melee) implement power. At least, that's how I read it.

Completely agree. I made the statement I did to stress the fact that using a weapon as an implement is "hitting with the weapon" and it was "hit with <keyword> power" that determined anything else - so yes an Implement power with the Melee range used with a weapon would allow a "hit with a melee power with this weapon".

As for Burst/Blast powers they are determined by what they say on them. They are not "a melee power", they are a Close or Area power as said on each power.

Basically using a weapon as an implement is the same as "using the weapon" in any other context. The rest of the issue is whether any other restrictions are placed by the wording of any given power/property.
So (when using a weapon as an implement):
"hit with this weapon" = fine with any power that hits and has the Implement keyword* [to indicate the implement (weapon) was used].
"hit with a melee power with this weapon" = fine with Melee range powers with the Implement keyword*, otherwise not
etc.

* Powers with the Weapon keyword would also count - but you wouldn't be using the weapon as an implement at the time of course.