monks . . . we don't need no stinking monks

[Shard O'Glase]

Probably because of UHF on the miswording. I definatly got that right.
Another favorite quote from UHF of mine:
"What is in the box? NOTHING! ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! YOU'RE SO STUPID!!!"

so many good quotes form that movie. i've always een partial to, "Don't you know the dewey decimal system" THWACK

 

[Black Omega]

I can understand that's what you visulaize considering modern unarmed combat techniques. But I jsut wanted to point out that back in the day before guns etc changed wafare there were quite a few unarmed combat styles in Eurpoe, some influenced by the east, some not. They as a general rule didn't survive because different cultures empahsized diffeent things, and hey we had guns.

Now wheter or not mystical stories about them abounded I can't say, but there existence is written down in history.

Savate is quite an effective style. Wrestling is pretty much universal. Panktration (sp) dates back to 1,000 BC. Some people credit it with having an influence on the development of Eastern martial arts.

There's nothing uniquely asian about the art of unarmed combat, though the mystical elements are decidedly more Asian.

 

[Mouseferatu]

So tell me again why I should allow an eastern Hodgepodge character into a serious western game?

Let me tell you about Jeremiah MacCree. (Trust me, it's relevent.)

Jeremiah is a human who was born to one of the very few human families in a primarily dwarven mining community. Like all members of the community, he grew up working the mines, digging for precious stones and gems. He got to know the earth and the stone as well as any non-dwarf possibly could.

He was also raised in the dwarven faith, in which earth and stone are themselves something to be revered, to be honored far beyond the worship granted to any distant god. The spirits of stone were very real, this religion said, and would grant boons to those who pleased them.

Jeremiah learned to call upon those spirits in very specific ways, ways that only the greatest dwarven warriors of the community had done before.

Jeremiah could call upon the strength of the rock to harden his fists, striking bare-handed crushing blows that would crumple metal and shatter rock more effectively than any hammer. He learned to sense his opponents' actions through the very earth around him, granting him an ability to sense incoming blows and avoid them where much "faster" warriors could not. As his skills improved further still, he learned to channel the strength of the rock through him, to purge his body of toxins and eventually even to heal wounds. He learned to allow the earth beneath his feet to speed his steps, and even to transport through it to another location in a matter of an instant. He learned to partially anchor himself to nearby surfaces, to slow his falls.

And so on, and so forth.

Mechanically, he's a monk. Culturally, and in terms of image, there's nothing even vaguely eastern about him.

Perhaps, when all is said and done, your problem is not with the class, but simply with its most common portrayal?

 

[Sanackranib]

Re: Re: monks

Is D&D a serious western game? I seem to have missed that memo. I would actually like that.

I don't run a monte hall or game that relies heavy on puns.

 

[kenjib]

Hey, sorry. That was kind of rude of me and I apologize. I think that D&D is a mish-mosh of all kinds of wierd stuff. Some of it is completely unique to D&D, like the cleric and the druid (semantical connotations aside). If I were to measure it up in terms of how it models western myth, literature, or history, unfortunately I don't think I would rate it very well.

There are many potential uses for the monk class in a D&D world. Here are some examples:

1. A remote monastery of mystic aescetics. Classic fantasy archetype. The word is Greek and suits the D&D monk well. "We are the Brotherhood of Fate, who have lived atop the holy Mount Nishor for time uncounted where we pull at fate like the strings of a harp. Why have you made the pilgrimage to seek us out, young knight?"

2. A traveller from a distant land. The monk is exotic and mysterious, both great qualities in fantasy. "The prophecies of old have led me here. Twisted into your fight is the fate of the entire world, and so the elders have sent me here from distant lands to help. I have followed the wind across deserts, seas, mountains, and plains, and it has led me to you."

3. A character who derives his power from some new source described in-game, like mouseferatu's example.

These examples don't rely on Eastern ornament, with the exception of the second (although a source other than Eastern could easily be used), but that's what makes the second one interesting.

This is fantasy, and the monk class is the only ascetic, a useful archetype. Personally, I find the druid to be even more strange.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Originally posted by Mouseferatu

Perhaps, when all is said and done, your problem is not with the class, but simply with its most common portrayal?

I would agree.

Unfortunately the monk is definitely flavoured a whoppee, eastern super kung fu class. You need to do a lot of work to change that.

 

[Sanackranib]

monk

which takes us full circle to my origional question reguarding an alturnate martial artist and weither anyone had onw played in their game

 

[Sagan Darkside]

Re: monk

which takes us full circle to my origional question reguarding an alturnate martial artist and weither anyone had onw played in their game

I may have missed your response in all the mess, but did you consider checking out the spycraft unarmed combat feats?

They could be applied to a fighter and do quite well.

SD

 

[hong]

Re: monks

So tell me again why I should allow an eastern Hodgepodge character into a serious western game?

Absolutely no reason at all.

Not that most D&D games tend to _be_ seriously western anyway. Just check out those Uthgardt barbarians with their "totem animals", or the Raiders of the Barrens, or Maztica, or Ket. As far as I can tell, most D&D worlds tend to be the exact hodgepodge you don't seem to like: containing multiple cultures from different periods in history, ranging from the Iron Age to the late Renaissance. This is a Good Thing in terms of world design, insofar as it builds flexibility into the game and allows players to explore a greater range of character concepts than might otherwise be the case.

However, that's just _most_ worlds. It might not apply to _your_ world, which might be heavy on the historical verisimilitude. I don't know why you'd want to do that in D&D of all games, but that's none of my business.

In which case, if historical verisimilitude really is your beef with monks, tell me again exactly what the "eastern hodgepodge" thing has to do with this little whinge of yours:

my beefs with monks:
too many special abilities
special abilities that no core class should have ie spell resistance and poison imunity, not to mention EVERY save is FAVORED!
at higher level they are too unbalanced ie:d20 hand damage, fast movement, safe fall, sr, dex AND wis to ac etc

So if you want to ban monks because they don't fit the flavour you're aiming for, fine. Trying to handwave it by saying they're a broken class is just being silly.

 

[ruemere]

Hong's MA class

Hong,
I've read your Martial Artist description, and I'd like to share some thoughts on this.

First of all, Martial Artists are very much like athletes, i.e. they often take more exercise then ordinary soldiers. I would suggest increasing their class hit die to d10 or even d12.

Secondly, while I do agree that Monks need good saves, giving them 3/4 progress in all three is too good. I would settle for Medium (i.e. 1/2) progression in saving throws. Your MA's Will is weak - why? Doesn't your MA practise meditation techniques etc?

Thirdly, BAB progression - as Fighter's - these guys know how and where to hit so their good BAB (1/1) is entirely justified.

I have also noticed that MA lacks increased unarmed damage. I would consider adding a chain of feats allowing to increase unarmed damage and to bypass hardness and damage reduction (for the purpose of breaking bricks and damaging those pesky outsiders), something like:
- Improved Unarmed Damage - multiple, stacks, increase your damage die by one size each time you take this feat.
- Find the Weakness - multiple, stacks, each time you take this feat your unarmed strike damage ignores 5 points of hardness or damage reduction.

Regards,
Ruemere