monks . . . we don't need no stinking monks

[JRRNeiklot]

I have a 15th level monk in my campaign and he has died 3 or 4 times. I will admit that this is mostly from his player's stupidity, but monks are FAR from unbalanced. Properly played, they are hard to kill, but cannot deliver much punch. Ad20 damage is nice, but this is with a 3/4 base attack and no magical bonuses. A fighter with a greatsword will do more damage and hit more often. The monks only great trait is his survivability. You can't fireball him, he has no weak save, and if he can't kill you, he can outrun you.

 

[Golandrinel]

Tch. Only 17 posts, and already trepanning himself.

ho ho ho ... 17 posts here in total ... 25000 other non monk posts elsewhere... I was due trepanning!

 

[hong]

ho ho ho ... 17 posts here in total ... 25000 other non monk posts elsewhere...

You say this like it's a positive thing.

 

[Felix]

About Badges

Badges? We don't need no stinkin badges!

Don't forget Blazing Saddles. Although Mel Brooks warped the quote from the black and white film, I'm thinking this is where most people know it from.

 

[Felon]

Re: Re: Re

They have two directions- they are support fighters and are meant to help neutralize spellcasters.

Yes, and not just spellcasters, but also opponents that rely on supernatural abilities in the place of melee hitting power or high AC. They'll be standing after the illithid's mind blasts have leveled the fighters, and they'll be laughing at the beholder who can't figure out why can't find an eyebeam that will affect the quick little human.

The person who mentioned the monk not being able to hold his own against the giants hit the nail on the head, whether he knew it or not. That's exactly the sort of opponent where monks have trouble pulling their weight. Of course, a lot of DM's I've played with use big, dumb, smashy types pretty much exclusively, so it's no wonder the monk never seems to shine.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

Re: Re: Re: Re

That's exactly the sort of opponent where monks have trouble pulling their weight.

There is a player in my group who loves monks- he has shown that use of the extended movement, tumble, and spring attack makes him capable in most melee combats.

Granted- he is not doing a lot of damage, but he is not taking it either.

SD

 

[hong]

Re: Re: Re: Re

Yes, and not just spellcasters, but also opponents that rely on supernatural abilities in the place of melee hitting power or high AC. They'll be standing after the illithid's mind blasts have leveled the fighters, and they'll be laughing at the beholder who can't figure out why can't find an eyebeam that will affect the quick little human.

The person who mentioned the monk not being able to hold his own against the giants hit the nail on the head, whether he knew it or not. That's exactly the sort of opponent where monks have trouble pulling their weight.

1) For most people, survivability is boring. It may be essential, but it's still boring.

2) There is a fundamental disconnect between what the monk's class abilities are, and its roots in folklore and popular fiction. When you look at the sources for the monk, namely characters like those in Bruce Lee or Jet Li movies, there's one thing that these guys do very well: kick butt. Now whatever the merits of the monk may be, kicking butt isn't something it does very well. Hence it's entirely reasonable that when people come to play the monk, they feel disappointed that their character can't do what they expect it to do.

 

[Felon]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re

There is a player in my group who loves monks- he has shown that use of the extended movement, tumble, and spring attack makes him capable in most melee combats. Granted- he is not doing a lot of damage, but he is not taking it either. SD

Granted, that saves some of the cleric's resources, but a character's got to do more than save his own hide from the giant's club to officially qualify as "pulling his own weight", IMHO.

Now with the likes of spellcasters, beholders, mind flayers, etc, the trouble isn't so much cranking out damage as it is weathering the opponent's attacks so that you can get close and take it out.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re

Granted, that saves some of the cleric's resources, but a character's got to do more than save his own hide from the giant's club to officially qualify as "pulling his own weight", IMHO.

Yes, but not all classes are "pulling their own weight" in all encounters.

Throw a group of monks at the party and watch the wizard fade into a useless grappled mess.

Heck, bring a first level wizard on an adventure and watch him be useless. (I know from personal experience.)

The key for the player is to figure out how to make their character is useful in all encounters- even if it is just support. A class should not be designed to do that.

I will agree that monks become generally less useful at higher levels, but that is due to the lack of high level feat options. The same happens to fighters.

SD

 

[buzzard]

This is actually one of those infamous misquotes, up there with "play it again, Sam" and "why don't you come up and see me sometime." Nobody ever says any of these in the films to which they are attributed. Here's the original:

http://www.darryl.com/badges/fullbadges.wav

The wording is different.

Well they do say that quote as is in Blazing Saddles.

buzzard