D&D 4E Monte Cook on 4E

[rounser]

In "The Mythical Man-month", Fred Brooks discusses a design model similar to a surgery team, where the design is guided by a lead architect, who is responsible for the overall structure of the design, while the work of actually realising that design is split between the various team members. This would seem to combine the best of the "uncompromising single vision" and the "team-working" models.

I think there's a better direct analog than that - a director and their movie crew, where everything gets okayed or set in motion by the director. Of course, many very poor movies have been created this way, as well as many very good ones.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Still waiting for the "utterly broken mechanics" in regards to Iron Heroes. I've seen that claim a few times in the thread and I'm interested in know just what they supposedly are.

I am not sure if it's got to be discussed here? Maybe better create a thread for that topic and post a link here? Might otherwise lead to too much side-tracking.

 

[broghammerj]

In "The Mythical Man-month", Fred Brooks discusses a design model similar to a surgery team, where the design is guided by a lead architect, who is responsible for the overall structure of the design, while the work of actually realising that design is split between the various team members. This would seem to combine the best of the "uncompromising single vision" and the "team-working" models.

This would allow many people to bring their ideas to the table, and if they fit the global vision they can be incorporated, while if they do not they get held for some theoretical future edition.

That said, when I read "The Mythical Man-Month", I decided such a team structure would suck for everyone except for the lead architect, so I'm not sure I actually recommend it.

Note Delericho, this is not a criticism of you but of Fred Banks assumptions.

I am not familiar with "The Mythical Man-Month" but I am a surgeon (urologist) and while this type of thinking is often applied to surgery, I think it's a bit inappropriate or more accurately, over simplified. As the "lead architect" I am responsible for the overall design but am also doing most of the direct work. The surgical team is doing things to make my job possible but not necessarily doing the surgery. The exception would be anesthesia, which has an active role in keeping the patient alive and responding to things that I am doing. I guess I would call them my surgical co-pilot, but a more fair comparison would be the navigator. I could be flying the plane really well (as in not crashing), but they may tell me I am way off course. To use an example of other OR team members, the scrub tech is handing me instruments so I can operate, but they are not actually doing the operation.

To come back to RPG design....The designer/author has a vision for the mechanic or game system which would never be brought to fruition if there weren't typesetters, artists, copy editors, etc. Ultimately, the game design work is in the designer's hands but the other elements are required to make a book.

This discussion of various team members Bank's allude to would be more like 4 surgeons were in the room doing the same surgical case with no one really solely responsible for the patient........DISASTER!

The only exception is in reference to safety. If anyone in the OR thinks something has gone wrong, the lead surgeon is alerted to make the decision to remedy the problem. The could be equated to the impact of multiple designers in that one is likely to raise a red flag if something looks really wrong with the game design.

 

[Odhanan]

Most game design I've been involved with (pen and paper, and computer games)

I'm curious. If you don't mind me asking, what designs have you been involved with?

 

[MerricB]

Most game design I've been involved with (pen and paper, and computer games) is usually done with that kind of team structure, where you have a lead developer, leads for each department (art, writing, programming, etc.), and then the individual artists, writers, and such. One person being the main visionary and making sure everything meets in a consistent manner is important, especially on large projects.

It's how it works at Wizards. There are lots of articles on the Magic side of things (normally by Mark Rosewater) on how they have a Lead Designer and a Lead Developer.

Same thing with D&D, given the comments I've been hearing.

Cheers!

 

[The Little Raven]

I'm curious. If you don't mind me asking, what designs have you been involved with?

The RPG stuff has yet to be published. With the announcement of 4e, my "boss" (we're all friends tinkering with a startup, but he's the driving force behind it) elected for us to focus on fluff more than the rules, so we're holding off on mechanical design until we have either access to a pre-released SRD/playtest draft or the game is out (we're more interested in meeting our expectations than hard deadlines). We've also been sidetracked by the development of a board game our lead developer has been toying with. One of the products is a campaign setting, on which I was lead developer, which is a commercial reimagining of my homebrew campaign.

Also, I was the lead developer of Roc Games' "Celtic Adventures" setting before the company faded into obscurity. It's a shame that never went anywhere, because I was overseeing a very talented and knowledgeable group of people and was really excited about it seeing the light of day.

The video game stuff, I don't really like to talk about, since it's how I make a living, and I deal with it more than I like to at times. I'm a programming lead, and I also wear a "scenario writer" hat every now and again.

Before I got my current job, though, I was the project leader for the "WoDMod" modification for Vampire: the Masquerade Redemption, and my work on that project is what got me noticed. I took over the project in early 2001, when it was simply the "Consumate Vampire Mod," which was trying to add all the clans/bloodlines/Disciplines to the game. While getting that organized and finding more teammates, it scaled into adding elements from the other game. It really took off when a talented guy named Yith presented us with a Mage client, and I got a call a few weeks later to come in for an interview at my current employer, and I left the project in Yith's hands.

 

[Tharkun]

I am not sure if it's got to be discussed here? Maybe better create a thread for that topic and post a link here? Might otherwise lead to too much side-tracking.

No point in making a whole new thread just to get a questioned answered.

 

[rounser]

The RPG stuff has yet to be published. With the announcement of 4e, my "boss" (we're all friends tinkering with a startup, but he's the driving force behind it) elected for us to focus on fluff more than the rules, so we're holding off on mechanical design until we have either access to a pre-released SRD/playtest draft or the game is out (we're more interested in meeting our expectations than hard deadlines).

Ah, this explains your stance on this board.

 

[Sylrae]

I may be scooped -- I am not sure how old this is, but there was an interview over on Net Book o' Feats with Monte Cook and he makes the following statement regarding 4E:

The entire interview is here.

Yes, you are correct: The interview was at the link provided.
Does anyone disagree that it wasn't there?

That is some of the funniest I've seen today. I love you guys. Now I'm gonna go read the rest of the topic

Getting (Mostly) satisfied customers to switch would be harder I imagine. I'm a university student and likely will not have the money to get alot of 4e stuff. We shall see what happens. Personally I hope they continue to sell the 3.5 supplements until they have 4e ones to replace them so I dont have to use ebay to track them down.

 

[borc killer]

(You wouldn't believe the debate we had about whether attacking around a corner should take a cover penalty!)

You’re KILLING ME!!! What did the team decide?? hehe. Next time I see you at a con I am going to give you a swift kick in the shin!

And as for the main topic, I personally prefer a team with a competent and strong leader when I am working on a project in RL and from what I have seen the D&D brand has one. A lot of people get jaded in corporate America because of bad management… something I don’t think is an issue at WotC.