Monte Cook's Design Thoughts On Spellcasters

[Graf]

I’m not sure that I buy the “some people can’t play this class very well so we should get rid of it in exchange for something that’s idiot proof” is a very compelling argument.

I'm not sure that wanting to do something in the game instead of watching other people do it makes you an idiot.

Cunningly argued. Shall I pick a random word for your sentence and then smugly refute it to “prove” you’re opinion is wrong?

My statement was that I don’t find MC’s argument regarding the “unplayability of the wizard” very compelling. The class now gives up the ability to do something meaningful every round in exchange for the chance to do something really meaningful a few times a game.

I enjoy the class and the challenge. The fact that some people need to something kewl every round or they become unhappy (or, conversely, the fact that they’ll try to use their best power every round without thinking beyond the current fight) doesn’t mean that every class -has- to be re-built to accommodate their play-style. Some people don’t enjoy long term planning or strategy; why do people who do bother you so much?

Despite your insulting response above I didn’t say they’re idiots; I’m just not sure why you feel that -every- class has to match the I-must-be-cool-every-round mentality.
(Or you could just… say… buy a wand? Or is the use of wands by wizards an affront to you too?)

The new complete mage book is almost certain to have something along these lines (which is probably why MC is bringing it up now) but I doubt you’ll see them suggesting you remove the wizard because of it’s “unplayability”.

 

[MerricB]

Up from six occupants in the older editions... I think the duration is higher too; going by memory, I think it was 10 minutes per level in 1e. 1 hour per level is a bit much.

In 1e: 2 turns/level (20 minutes/level). 6 occupants maximum.

Cheers!

 

[RangerWickett]

Ryan, the fact that you're working on something like this makes me very curious.

I mentioned it earlier in the thread, actually.

What I'm planning to do for the final revision of Elements of Magic is to give spellcasters mana. You get an amount of mana as you take levels in the 'Mage' class at the same rate that you get a Will save bonus (+2, then 1 more every even level, maxing out at 12).

Whenever you cast a spell, it costs 1 mana, but that mana replenishes if you rest for five minutes. Some spells, however, have effects that require more enduring energy, so they cause mana drain. Mana drain only replenishes once per day when you rest.

Spells that cause mana drain are those that have long durations, or that replicate effects that normally take a long time to complete. For instance, teleportation covers a lot of distance quickly, so teleportation above a certain distance causes 1 mana drain instead of just costing 1 mana which you could replenish after 5 minutes. Magical healing, seeing the future, and almost any effect that lasts longer than a minute causes mana drain.

If you're out of mana, you can still cast a few spells in a pinch, but doing so fatigues, then exhausts, then knocks you out. So normally a mage will cast a few spells per encounter, but have only a few 'broken' spells per day. The spells you cast will have all the variety of core D&D spells (moreso, actually, since you have the option to make spells up on the fly), and you'll have to balance the desire to create long-duration effects with the need to save mana for efforts later in the day.

I think it's actually a lot like what Monte is looking for. Now I just need to finish writing it.

I'm not requiring skill checks for this system, for several reasons that came up during the long-term playtest after I published the book. For one thing, it sucks to both make skill checks and give your targets saves to resist you. If I could, I'd rewrite the core rules for 4e so that things like Fort, Ref, and Will were static numbers that you'd have to beat when you make a spellcasting check, but that's beyond the scope of a small book.

Also, it was too easy for fighters to jump into spellcasting without really giving anything up. You pick one spell type you want to be good at, and oh no, you aren't that good at climbing. You can just fly. It was overpowered because all you needed to cast were skill ranks and one feat. In the new system, you have a measurable resource for spellcasting -- mana -- which isn't easy to get if you don't focus on magic.

However, with the revisions I'm making, you still spend skill points to represent how good you are at a given magic type. The way it's like Monte's idea is that you can cast 'average' spells several times per encounter, then once you get a chance to rest your ability to use those replenishes. However, you can only cast spells that have long-lasting effects a few times per day before you wear yourself out.

Also, mages have the option of permanently giving up mana to gain enduring abilities. It's a new type of resource management. Do you want cool abilities that always work but can't be changed, or do you want versatility?

I'm going to balance it so that spellcasters won't normally be able to beat fighters at the damage-dealing realm, encouraging mages to use wits to win instead of lots of d6s.

If you want, send me an email at RangerWickett@hotmail.com, and I can send you the rough draft.

 

[DungeonMaester]

I mentioned it earlier in the thread, actually.
If I could, I'd rewrite the core rules for 4e so that things like Fort, Ref, and Will were static numbers that you'd have to beat when you make a spellcasting check, but that's beyond the scope of a small book.

Convert to Rifts.

---Rusty

 

[woodelf]

What really interests me about this article, though, is that Monte is basically arguing for the magic systems that were developed in the late 80s/early 90s in games like Ars and Vampire. In fact, the suggestion is basically structures like the path/ritual scheme of vampire's old Thaumaturgy system.

I suppose there's some resemblance to the end result of Ars Magica's magic system--lots of constant/minor effects, a limited number of powerful effects--but the mechanisms don't look very similar at all to me.

What i thought as i read the article was "how is this a revelation? Didn't you just describe the Arcana Unearthed witch?" I mean, really, all of the spellcasters in AU resemble that model (a small number of always- or usually-available magical abilities, coupled with somewhat reduced spellcasting). Even the "full" spellcasters, the magister and greenbond, still have a bunch of magical abilities outside of the spell structure, and with the toning down of the spells themselves, most seem to think that a magister's raw spellcasting power is somewhat less than a wizard's (though made up for in flexibility).

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

What i thought as i read the article was "how is this a revelation? Didn't you just describe the Arcana Unearthed witch?" I mean, really, all of the spellcasters in AU resemble that model (a small number of always- or usually-available magical abilities, coupled with somewhat reduced spellcasting). Even the "full" spellcasters, the magister and greenbond, still have a bunch of magical abilities outside of the spell structure, and with the toning down of the spells themselves, most seem to think that a magister's raw spellcasting power is somewhat less than a wizard's (though made up for in flexibility).

Maybe Monte doesn't truly play that much with AU in fact, but rather games mostly with Core D&D, and thus simply forgot about past (but relatively recent) work because his familiarity with it was reduced?

 

[Pbartender]

Mr. Burlew is watching...

 

[Janx]

Order of the stick 345 brings up a good point. It's really stupid to have a spell list, of which you can only cast 10% of during any game, and you have to choose which 10% before the game starts, thus you usually don't choose the more obscure spells (that might actually help you once per 10 games).

There's 100s of spells in the rule books. Your wizard PC gets maybe 50 of them by 20th level (about 10 0th level + 2 per level). You've already filtered out a huge subset of spells. Then the memorization rules kick in, and you'll not use more than half of the spells in your spellbook. In fact, you'll probably stick to a common set, as they have the most frequently usable effects during most games. And you'll run into some encounter where, yes you have the spell, but you didn't memorize it, and now you can't be clever and think to use it. Let alone the fact that you never had a clue you would have needed it earlier in the game. We're not talking memorize sonic spells today, we're gonna fight fire-immune baddies. We're talking the obscure stuff. The not so obvious solution to a problem spells.

In 2E, we had house-ruled the memorization (pre-selection) of spells out of the game. Once we did that, we found the PCs were coming up with far more creative uses for their spells. players would cast spells other than obvious "I do lots o'damage" spells in order to solve problems. Things got interesting. The key to playing a wizard PC then, was thinking to learn a spell and see uses for it, and to think of using the spell during the game. The player still had the same spells per day limit, they just weren't restricted to a tight subset of their spells that were chosen will little information.

 

[tzor]

I want to say that I do like a lot of Monte's ideas, but he hasn't gone far enough to reveal the real problem of the system. "A game designer should, at least some of the time, look at the game from the top down. He looks at how the system itself works, and -- just as importantly -- how the system encourages certain types of play."

I think the problem basically comes down to something which I will call "mojo" maintenance. Each class has a different "mojo" which they can use until they don't have any more and then they sort of shut down as it were. We often say that fighters can fight all day, but they too have a limitation - hit points. Run low onhit points and the fighters will be reluctant to fight.

In the case of fighters we have the mojo refresh ability of cure spells, potions and wands. It's the availability of the later that can push a fighter into the cost dimension instead of the time dimension. I can recall in eariler editions (yes the ones with the non linear level equalities where some levels had to be slogged through in order to get the good stuff) the average fighter wanted to quit for the day around the same time as the average wizard because the cleric ran out of healing spells.

The problem isn't in the classes, it's in the equipment. The ability to get fighter mojo while at the same time severely limiting wizard mojo pushes the fighter's time envelope longer while keeping the wizard's time envelope the same. Yes there are spell casting devices, but these in one sense are high priced overkill. A wand has eveything you need to cast the spell, but for the most part the caster just wants the ability to cast more of the same spells they have aready prepared.

Of course this is still not going high enough levels. The biggest problem is impatience, the full assault all the time until burnout approach that an inexperienced tactistician might employ.

Ayway, Monte's ideas do have merrit, perhaps one can think of them in terms of trivial levels? For example, suppose there was a feat that allowed higher casters to cast those 0th level spells (invented in Dragon Mag in 1E, dropped in 2E and resurrected in 3E) as often as they liked. Those cantrips can be quite annoying when used every round. Or it could be a high level spell in and of itself (Unlimited Cantrips, or Unlimited 1st level spells) with a very long duration. The basic idea is to not require the caster to drain mojo for every action, much in the same way that a fighte only starts to get in trouble when they are hit as opposed to when they attempt to hit.

 

[Nellisir]

In the case of fighters we have the mojo refresh ability of cure spells, potions and wands. It's the availability of the later that can push a fighter into the cost dimension instead of the time dimension. I can recall in eariler editions (yes the ones with the non linear level equalities where some levels had to be slogged through in order to get the good stuff) the average fighter wanted to quit for the day around the same time as the average wizard because the cleric ran out of healing spells.

Which prompts the thought, what if there was a "mojo refresh" ability for wizards and sorcerers that wasn't embedded in those classes? What if fighters could bolster spellcasters?

Just a thought.