MotW: Tempest question: 2H vs 2W, again!

Xeovke

First Post
Sorry to announce that, but your calculations are more than a little wrong:
Mustrum_Ridcully said:

We will ignore Strength bonus - at least for now. And we will ingore the greater probability of a critical hit when wielding two weapons - this might or might not be compensating each other.
Ignoring strenght bonus is in favor of the 2WF since he has 1.5 Str placed at the +4BAB-2Penalty=+2, while the 2HF has a 1.5 placed at +4BAB+1WeapFoc=+5. Ignoring critical hits does not make a great difference overall, and in the cases you mentionned it actually advantages the 2WF (by some .1 average dmg per round).
This means he can roll 2 x D20. Allowing two rolls of a D20 is approximately equivalent to rolling 1d20 with a +10 bonus.
Ummm.... not really, in fact, not at all:
one d20 chance to hit= P
2 d20 chace to hit twice (at -3 penalty)= Q^2
2 d20 chance to hit at least once
= 1-(1-Q)^2 = 2Q-Q^2
where
Q=P-2/20 (penalty of TWF) -1/20 (no weapon focus)=P-3/20
average hit per round= 2Q
Now if Q=10/20 you indeed have a an "effective" +10 to hit, in fact if Q=x/20 you have "effectively" +x to hit. Now let P=y/20 then the bonus relative to the 1 weapon guy is
[2(y-3)-y]/20=(y-6)/20
(Note that this does not take account of the fact that you always hit on 20). So you have actually cases where the you have more chances to hit with one weapon only to the contrary of the "+10 to hit" (very) crude approximation.
Now let's look at the damage (without crit):
Prob to hit with 1 attack=P
Average dmg 1 weapon: Dmg*P
so in the case of the 2HF Dmg=7+2(WpnSpec)+1.5Str
Average dmg 2 weapons:
(Dmg1+Str)*(P-3)+(Dmg2+.5Str)*(P-3)
= (Dmg1+Dmg2+1.5Str)*(P-3)
with Dmg1=4.5 and Dmg2=3.5 so
Now Avrg dmg 2WF= (8+1.5Str)*(P-3)
which is actually only worse than the 2HF! Of course you could make some calculations and find that actually if their weapon is masterwork, and with a *perfect* use of power attack your 2HF is better than the 2WF for AC 7 to 28, which at this level is almost any opponent; of course your cases were under-optimal, you could design a more advantageous case for the TWF (though never have a always better TWF case), the main problem is that it is never quite worth the 3 or 4 feats you paid, and I don't feel an optionnal prestige class to be such a good fix. As JLXC noted, giving full-Str bonus on off-hand is the ideal fix you need: it simplifies combat and does not unbalance styles.
As a general remark one of the very big error comes from the simplificative use you make of power attack: a 2WF who uses badly his power attack loses less in average dmg than a simple weapon fighter that uses it badly.
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Finally, for those who are interested in comparing 2WF and 2HF, I already posted on this site one of my excel worksheet (with macros) which makes a nice table that gives you average dmg for Mr.1, Mr.2 and the difference between them. It is flexible enough so you can modify many things like Str bonus multiplier to dmg, 2 weapon fighting penalties, etc...
I won't attach it again here, since I fear to slow the boards, but it is in the thread
"Two weapon Wackiness", started by Xarlen, last post by Spikey Freak on Feb-05-2002, the link is
http://www.enworld.org/messageboards/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2293
attached to one of my posts (I think on the second page). It includes a .txt readme to explain how it works. What is the price you ask??? well it is free!!! Incredible! and you can tinker with it all you want since I don't have time to do it myself...
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Xeovke

BTW, for those who were on the old ENworld boards I am sorry about not being able to continue that discussion, but I was busy for some time (and I am still too much to get involve in long discussions) and the boards closed.
 

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Mal Malenkirk

First Post
:eek: Xeovk, don't tell me I missed the cow in the avatar list and you got it first!

Please say it is a custom avatar that you imported. Then, I'll just be jealous.
 

Well, I calculated the bonus this way:
You roll 2 D20. The maximum difference between the two rolls is 19 (rolling a 1 and rolling a 20), the minimum difference is 0 (rolling the same number twice).
Since my calculation are only approximated, I assumed that the average difference is (0+19)/2 = 19/2 = 9.5 (so you are right that it is not 10 :) ).
I used this difference as the average "bonus" if you could only use one of both results.
I used the same method to get the average damage (using the best and the worst possible result, and get the average. So if making this calculation for attack is wrong, then is the average damage, and I believe my method is right.)
Well this +10 bonus is reduced by the penalties for using two weapons, reducing it to +8 (I stated this).

This means - obviously - that I did speciafically not take into account that you could even hit twice using two weapon fighting, and as stated I did also ignore the fact that twohanded fighting gives more damage bonus to your attack (I believe this might make Two Handed Fighting with strength cores up to 17 equal to two weapon fighting and above slightly better.)

I completely ignored the ACs of your opponent, because this makes things to difficult to calculate. There are situations in which you probably really need a higher base attack bonus, and there are also many situations in which you can hit twice with your bonus attacks.
(The AC I used in my calculations is their fighters own - Since I want them to not to fight against each other, but only compare the combat abilities, and I think their AC is not unimportantfor this. To Hit and To Be Hit, so to say :) )

Okay, I am willing to agree that considering the need for Improved Two Weapon Fighting to keep this calculations correct when multiple attacks from base attack spring in and the problem with greater Strength Bonus Damage, Two Weapon Fighting can become slightly weaker than Two Handed Fighting, but actually the difference is still not great enough. Probably even for Min-Maxers... :)
Probably, this can even be compensated (for a price) by adding bonus damage (Sneak Attacks, or a Sure Striking Holy / Sure Striking Flaming & Corrosive Two Bladed Sword +1/+1. Two +4s are cheaper than 1 +8..)
 
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Xeovke

First Post
Mustrum_Ridcully said:
Though my calculation are only approximated, I assumed that the average difference is (0+19)/2 = 19/2 = 9.5 (so you are right that it is not 10 :) ).
The thing is, the people you encounter will not necessiraly have an uniformly AC varying from your attacks bonus to your attack bonus +20. And my point was that these approximation are too crude: as I showed, if you read my post at long, your cases are actually a 2HF is better conclusion not a TWF is better. Supported by "numerical evidence" if you care enough to look at any dmg calculator.
Okay, I am willing to agree that considering the need for Improved Two Weapon Fighting to keep this calculations correct when multiple attacks from base attack spring in and the problem with greater Strength Bonus Damage Two Weapon Fighting can become slightly weaker than Two Handed Fighting, but actually the difference is still not great enough. Probably even for Min-Maxers... :)
Probably, this can even be compensated (for a price) by adding bonus damage (Sneak Attacks, Holy Corrosive Two Bladed Sword of Flaming and so on :) )
The thing is fighter are quite a lot advantaged to have high Str as it adds to dmg, attack bonus, and most of their skills (for what that's worth, so you should assume they have a reasonnably high Str scores. I forgot to mention that in my AC 7 to 28 I supposed they had a Str of 16, which really is not a great thing for a 4th level fighter.
The problem is precisely that the TWF is not as good as 2HF even with one of those extra damage dice on each weapons, and if you assume such weapons then the TWF has to pay more since he has 2 weapons to enchant, and then you don't really know what the other guys do with the supplementary money: a better enchantment bonus, a gauntlet of ogre power. a belt of giant Strenght, an animated shield +1, boots of speed, etc... then also what happens when the monster has elemental resistance, or DR 10/+2... Oh! and not to mention you paid 2 feats! and that there is another to come: Imp2WpnF
Heck, even in the following case:
Mr1, greatsword, spec and focus, BAB+15, Str +6, +2 enchantment, +2d6 "other" dmg
Mr2, double-bl sword, specd and focus, BAB+15, Str +5, +2 enchantment, +2d6 "other dmg" on each end
Mr1 is better in AC 27 to 40. Which are a relatively common AC at 15th level. Note I was generous in not going to the 16 th level where the 2HF would be better (the attacks he gains is only better than the attacks the TWF gains).
And Mr2 has paid 4 feats to get there, what a great investment!
Anyhoo...I should be working now...

Xeovke
 

Xeovke

First Post
Mal Malenkirk said:
:eek: Xeovk, don't tell me I missed the cow in the avatar list and you got it first!

Please say it is a custom avatar that you imported. Then, I'll just be jealous.

MWAHAHAHAHAHA
I am mOOseferatu, the devil Jersey cow!
:D
Oops! :eek: Jersey cows are brown.... I've got to fix that avatar...
Xeovke
 


SpikeyFreak

First Post
Something no one has mentioned:

A 2HF can have one +10 weapon and get its effect on all attacks, but a 2WF has to spend twice as much to do that, which is A LOT of gold.

--Quiet Spikey
 

DrSpunj

Explorer
Hey Spikey!!!

Since you're reading this thread, any chance you answer my question in the opening post?

Specifically, do have any interest in updating your calculator to include Great 2WF and Supreme 2WF along with Absolute Ambidexterity?

Please!?!:p
 


SpikeyFreak

First Post
Re: Hey Spikey!!!

DrSpunj said:
Since you're reading this thread, any chance you answer my question in the opening post?

Specifically, do have any interest in updating your calculator to include Great 2WF and Supreme 2WF along with Absolute Ambidexterity?

Please!?!:p
Sure, someday. :p

Work has been kinda hectic the last few days. If it slows down I'll work on it this week. It could take a while to implement that though, adding more attacks and more variable to BAB just makes it get uglier and uglier. I plan on adding lightning fists as well.

I'm glad you like it enough to ask for updates. :)

--Busy Spikey
 

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