D&D 5E Multiple reactions replacing Legendary Actions?!

[dave2008]

One additional thing I didn't think of before is how will this affect Mythic Monsters? Mythic Actions are another type of Legendary Action. Adding even more reaction trigger options seems less than ideal. Or Mythic monsters my go away It is worth noting that while Great Wyrms are Mythic Monsters in Fizban's, the Giant Scions are not. Instead they have two separate statblocks.

 

[Zaukrie]

One additional thing I didn't think of before is how will this affect Mythic Monsters? Mythic Actions are another type of Legendary Action. Adding even more reaction trigger options seems less than ideal. Or Mythic monsters my go away It is worth noting that while Great Wyrms are Mythic Monsters in Fizban's, the Giant Scions are not. Instead they have two separate statblocks.

I'm not sure I loved mythic monsters anyway. Maybe?

 

[dave2008]

OK, I tend to make monsters a bit more complex than WotC. So I have decided to apply this new philosophy to my monster design to see if it works. I took my Red Dragon Exarch of Takhisis and see if I could modify it to this new paradigm. Here is what I came up with.

Ancient Red Dragon	Challenge 25
Gargantuan mythic dragon, typically chaotic evil	150,000 Mythic XP

Armor Class 22 (natural armor)
Hit Points 468 (24d20 + 216)
Speed 90 ft., climb 70 ft., fly 240 ft., swim 70 ft.

STR	DEX	CON	INT	WIS	CHA
29 (+9)	12 (+1)	29 (+9)	22 (+6)	17 (+3)	26 (+8)

Saving Throws Str +17, Dex +9, Con +17, Int +14, Wis +11, Cha +16
Skills Arcana +13, Athletics +17, Intimidation +16, Perception +19
Damage Resistances force, piercing, poison
Damage Immunities fire
Condition Immunities poisoned
Senses blindsight 90 ft., darkvision 180 ft., passive perception 29
Languages Common, Draconic, Giant, Ignan
Proficiency Bonus +8; Maneuver DC 25

Blessing of Tiamat (Mythic Trait, recharges after a Rest). If the dragon would be reduced to 0 hit points, its current hit point total instead resets to 350 hit points, it recharges all of its abilities, and it can use its Mythic Traits and Actions for 1 hour.

Calescent Aura (Mythic Trait). At the start of the dragon's turn, the dragon can force any number of creatures of its choice within 60 feet of it to make a DC 18 Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, a creature loses any resistance to fire damage and then takes 14 (4d6) fire damage.

Colossal. The dragon's space is 30 feet by 30 feet and it has advantage on saving throws against being physically pushed or knocked prone by a Huge or smaller opponents.

Dragon Fear. Each creature that starts its turn within 120 feet of the dragon, it must make a DC 24 Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the creature is frightened of the dragon until the start of the creature’s next turn. If a creature’s saving throw is successful, the creature is immune to the Dragon Fear trait for the next 12 hours.

Dragon Traits. The dragon can use the following Dragon Tactics: dive, multi-claw, snatch, strafing, tail sweep, wing buffet

Ignite. When an area takes fire damage from the dragon’s Fire Breath it ignites, becoming engulfed in flames for 1 minute. The flames are 15 feet high, opaque, and cover the whole area. A creature takes 14 (4d6) fire damage when it enters or ends its turn within 5 feet of the area.

Scion of Fire (Mythic Trait). The dragon's Fire Breath deals an additional 100 fire damage and a creature reduced to 0 hit points by its Fire Breath dies and is turned to ash.

ACTIONS
Multiattack. The dragon makes two claw attacks. It can replace one of this attacks with a Fire Blast attack.

Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +17 to hit, reach 15 ft., one target. Hit: 48 (6d12 + 9) magical piercing damage plus 13 (2d12) fire damage and, if the dragon wishes, the target must make a DC 25 Strength throw or be grappled. A Medium or smaller creature grappled this way is also restrained.

Claw. Melee Weapon Attack: +17 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: 36 (6d8 + 9) magical slashing damage and, if the dragon wishes, the target must make a DC 25 Strength saving throw or knocked prone or pushed 10 feet, the dragon's choice.

Tail. Melee Weapon Attack: +17 to hit, reach 40 ft., one target. Hit: 42 (6d10 + 9) magical bludgeoning damage. If the target is a Large or smaller creature, it must succeed on a DC 25 Strength saving throw or be knocked prone and stunned until the end of the dragon’s next turn.

Wing Attack. The dragon beats its wings. Each creature within 40 feet of the dragon must succeed on a DC 25 Strength saving throw, taking 24 (6d4 + 9) bludgeoning damage and be pushed 10 feet and knocked prone on a failed save, or half as much damage only on a successful one. The dragon can then fly up to half its speed without provoking opportunity attacks.

Fire Blast. Ranged Weapon Attack: +17 to hit, range 180 ft., one target. Hit: 26 (4d12) fire damage and must make a DC 25 Constitution saving throw or take 13 (2d12) ongoing fire damage.

Dragon Magic (8/Day).* The dragon uses its innate magic, requiring no components, to create one of the following spell-like effects (spell save DC 24, +16 to hit with attacks) as if they are 8th level spells: continual flame, dominate monster, fireball, fire storm, flaming sphere, heat metal,, wall of fire

Charge Breath (Recharge 5-6). The dragon inhales and charges its breath weapon.

REACTIONS
The dragon can take up to three reactions per round, but only one per turn. If the dragon is suffering a negative condition or effect, if can spend one reaction to end the condition or effect as long as it has 1 hit point, even while unconscious or incapacitated .

Detect (Recharge 5-6). If a creature moves or attempts to Hide within 240 feet of the dragon, the dragon can extend its senses, making a DC 25 Wisdom (Perception) check and gaining advantage on its next attack or inflicting disadvantage on saving throws against its next use of Fire Breath on a success.

Attack (Cost 2 Reactions). Immediately after a creature the dragon can see ends its turn or at the end of the round, the dragon makes one Bite, Tail, or Wing attack.

Fire Breath (Costs 3 Reactions). At the end of a round the dragon has charged its breath weapon, it exhales fire in 200-foot cone or twenty 20-foot-by-20-foot contiguous areas within 200 feet of it. Each creature in that area must make a DC 25 Dexterity saving throw, taking 130 (20d12) fire damage plus 13 (2d12) ongoing fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage only on a successful one, or maximum damage on a save failed by ten or more (DC 15). Additionally, any magic or active spell of 8th level or lower in the area ends.

Recharge (Mythic Action, Costs 2 Reactions). At the end of the round, the dragon recharges its breath weapon.

Dragon Magic (Mythic Action, Costs 3 Reactions). At the start of the round before any other creature acts, the dragon can create a spell like effect using its dragon magic.

Tail Sweep (Mythic Action, Costs 3 reactions). Immediately after a creature the dragon can see ends its turn, the dragon swings its tail in a 40-foot cone, making a tail attack against reach target in the area. On a hit, a creature that fails the saving throw is pushed 4d10 feet and knocked prone instead of being knocked prone or stunned.

 

[dave2008]

I'm not sure I loved mythic monsters anyway. Maybe?

Blasphemy!

IMO, mythic monsters are the single greatest improvement to monster design since 5e started. It harkens back to 4e "elite" monster design, but so much more flexible. I don't think WotC has taken full advantage of the concept, but there is so much design space available with mythic monsters.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Blasphemy!

IMO, mythic monsters are the single greatest improvement to monster design since 5e started. It harkens back to 4e "elite" monster design, but so much more flexible. I don't think WotC has taken full advantage of the concept, but there is so much design space available with mythic monsters.

They could replace Legendary creatures with ones with multiple reactions and then replace/use Mythic for the new Legendary. (I like the idea of there being only one "Freakishly Awesome" monster-type, and if so, Mythic trumps Legendary. But then you can push the old legendary down to an "elite"-type status. At least I hope that's what they're up to!

 

[dave2008]

They could replace Legendary creatures with ones with multiple reactions and then replace/use Mythic for the new Legendary. (I like the idea of there being only one "Freakishly Awesome" monster-type, and if so, Mythic trumps Legendary. But then you can push the old legendary down to an "elite"-type status. At least I hope that's what they're up to!

That would work for me I think.

 

[Shardstone]

I like the new design. However, I think a tweak is needed. I think a legendary monster should just have two bonus reactions, and that it should have more then one turn in a given round (thus removing the need for legendary resistance). I've been doing this for years (higher CR = more rounds, no more then 4 rounds total) and it's completely changed the idea of boss monsters and made them feel a lot more amazing, legendary, and cinematic. There's some snags, but there is with the current system too. IMO I think multiple turns + multiple reactions = the most satisfactory boss enemies.

 

[Charlaquin]

So, after thinking on this idea for a bit, I think what they’re trying to do here is make legendary creatures easier to play. With legendary actions, you have this pool of LAs that all fuel the monster’s various special attacks, which all cost variable numbers of LAs, and you can do any of them at the end of any creature’s turn. That makes for a pretty complex decision tree, and finding the optimal line round after round could be pretty difficult. This might make them unappealing for some DMs to run, and it almost certainly contributes to a lot of variability in how much of a threat legendary creatures pose, depending on how optimally the DM runs them.

With the multiple reactions approach on the other hand, each reaction has specific conditions for when it can be taken, and they don’t have variable costs. So instead of trying to figure out the best use of your limited resources, a DM running one of these multiple reaction creatures is basically just running a few simple “if, then” functions:

• If hit by an attack and a creature is in Rend range, then Reactive Rend.
• If hit by an attack and no creature is in Rend range, then Time Slip.
• If a creature ends its turn weakened by Time Breath, then Slow Time.

The only real decision to make is how to prioritize those three functions (and I’m pretty sure prioritizing Slow Time first, then Reactive Rend, then Time Slip is optimal.) This makes such creatures much easier to run, at the cost of making them much less flexible, and much more predictable. The loss of flexibility is obviously a drawback, but I think the increased predictability might actually be a benefit. It gives these monsters more consistent tactics, which players can more easily analyze and develop strategies to counter, which I think will make them feel better to play against from the player side.

Another benefit of this approach is that it divorces the multiple off-turn action mechanic from legendary status. Technically there was no reason you couldn’t give legendary actions to any random creature, but I think the name “legendary action” made it feel like something that was only “supposed to” go on very special, usually high level monsters. Multiple reactions is something it feels fine for any monster to have.

Overall, I think I like the change, though I do hope mythic actions and lair actions stick around; maybe even keep original legendary actions as a rare thing some truly legendary monsters like archdevils, demon princes, great wyrms, etc. can have.

 

[Zaukrie]

So, after thinking on this idea for a bit, I think what they’re trying to do here is make legendary creatures easier to play. With legendary actions, you have this pool of LAs that all fuel the monster’s various special attacks, which all cost variable numbers of LAs, and you can do any of them at the end of any creature’s turn. That makes for a pretty complex decision tree, and finding the optimal line round after round could be pretty difficult. This might make them unappealing for some DMs to run, and it almost certainly contributes to a lot of variability in how much of a threat legendary creatures pose, depending on how optimally the DM runs them.

With the multiple reactions approach on the other hand, each reaction has specific conditions for when it can be taken, and they don’t have variable costs. So instead of trying to figure out the best use of your limited resources, a DM running one of these multiple reaction creatures is basically just running a few simple “if, then” functions:

• If hit by an attack and a creature is in Rend range, then Reactive Rend.
• If hit by an attack and no creature is in Rend range, then Time Slip.
• If a creature ends its turn weakened by Time Breath, then Slow Time.

The only real decision to make is how to prioritize those three functions (and I’m pretty sure prioritizing Slow Time first, then Reactive Rend, then Time Slip is optimal.) This makes such creatures much easier to run, at the cost of making them much less flexible, and much more predictable. The loss of flexibility is obviously a drawback, but I think the increased predictability might actually be a benefit. It gives these monsters more consistent tactics, which players can more easily analyze and develop strategies to counter, which I think will make them feel better to play against from the player side.

Another benefit of this approach is that it divorces the multiple off-turn action mechanic from legendary status. Technically there was no reason you couldn’t give legendary actions to any random creature, but I think the name “legendary action” made it feel like something that was only “supposed to” go on very special, usually high level monsters. Multiple reactions is something it feels fine for any monster to have.

Overall, I think I like the change, though I do hope, mythic actions and lair actions stick around; maybe even keep original legendary actions as a rare thing some truly legendary monsters like archdevils, demon princes, great wyrms, etc. can have.

I think it makes them harder, because now I need to remember what it reacts to.

 

[dave2008]

So, after thinking on this idea for a bit, I think what they’re trying to do here is make legendary creatures easier to play. With legendary actions, you have this pool of LAs that all fuel the monster’s various special attacks, which all cost variable numbers of LAs, and you can do any of them at the end of any creature’s turn. That makes for a pretty complex decision tree, and finding the optimal line round after round could be pretty difficult. This might make them unappealing for some DMs to run, and it almost certainly contributes to a lot of variability in how much of a threat legendary creatures pose, depending on how optimally the DM runs them.

With the multiple reactions approach on the other hand, each reaction has specific conditions for when it can be taken, and they don’t have variable costs. So instead of trying to figure out the best use of your limited resources, a DM running one of these multiple reaction creatures is basically just running a few simple “if, then” functions:

• If hit by an attack and a creature is in Rend range, then Reactive Rend.
• If hit by an attack and no creature is in Rend range, then Time Slip.
• If a creature ends its turn weakened by Time Breath, then Slow Time.

The only real decision to make is how to prioritize those three functions (and I’m pretty sure prioritizing Slow Time first, then Reactive Rend, then Time Slip is optimal.) This makes such creatures much easier to run, at the cost of making them much less flexible, and much more predictable. The loss of flexibility is obviously a drawback, but I think the increased predictability might actually be a benefit. It gives these monsters more consistent tactics, which players can more easily analyze and develop strategies to counter, which I think will make them feel better to play against from the player side.

Another benefit of this approach is that it divorces the multiple off-turn action mechanic from legendary status. Technically there was no reason you couldn’t give legendary actions to any random creature, but I think the name “legendary action” made it feel like something that was only “supposed to” go on very special, usually high level monsters. Multiple reactions is something it feels fine for any monster to have.

Overall, I think I like the change, though I do hope mythic actions and lair actions stick around; maybe even keep original legendary actions as a rare thing some truly legendary monsters like archdevils, demon princes, great wyrms, etc. can have.

I agree somewhat with your argument and in would definitely be fine if Legendary/Mythic monsters still existing in some for. However, I prefer the flexibility and options built into Legendary Actions. I also agree with Zaukrie, remember reaction triggers is always a hassle for me.

I think it makes them harder, because now I need to remember what it reacts to.