My Dragon Killed a PC and lives to tell the tale!

[bret]

I would be careful with the EL rules for a single opponent vs. a large party.

The spellcasters are going to have a much harder time with an older dragon just because of the SR. Even with Spell Penetration, they are going to loose a lot of spell power that they wouldn't have with a higher level spellcaster. I don't think that the greater number of characters fully makes up for this.

I hope the party wizard has started looking for indirect attacks and protections, since many of his spells will not get past the SR. Buffing spells are a much safer bet.

Dragons are just plain tough in 3rd edition. It really takes a smart and powerful party to deal with on at their own EL.

 

[Wolfspider]

Cloudgatherer, I have some suggestions for how you can use this blue dragon as a recurring enemy.

He's young and relatively inexperienced (well, not really, but he doesn't have a lot of experience with humanoids), and he's just run into a group of characters who were able to hurt him more than any other creatures have probably hurt him before. You bet he's going to be curious about these people and also more than a bit worried. The world is a more dangerous place than he first realized. He needs to prepare.

The dragon hunts the countryside and finds a lone traveller, snatching the hapless creature up in his claws and taking him or her back to its den. The dragon then interrogates its captive, using comprehend languages to find out as much as possible about the politics of the region and about the characters who attacked him (although its quite possible that the captive would not know about them unless they were local lessons). Over the next several weeks, the dragon learns as much Common and whatever other languages the captive knows, again using magic to make these lessons easier. Making sure that it has devoured every bit of its captive's knowledge about humanity and the surrounding land, it then eats the captive and begins plotting how it will both get revenge against the party and bolster its own power and defense against other humanoid interlopers.

How it does this is, of course, completely up to you.

 

[reapersaurus]

Cloudgatherer - any responses to the points/questions i made in the last post?

And i think it's kind of ironic that at the same time you're commenting on your 30-year old bard's worldliness and travelling experience, that you're treating the dragon as not only a newbie to the area, but a newbie to encountering humans! LOL

That really strains my belief that a 150 year old dragon would never have encountered humans before, OR talked to anything in its life before that gave the dragon a clue: "Hey, Mr. Dragon! Common is spoken by the majority of the most intelligent life form on this plane!
You might wanna catch a clue and spend a week or so learning it." <--tongue-in-cheek

It's this kind of extreme manipulation of the dragon's background to allow the party greater chance against it in battle that i find a problem, and I'm surprised other B.A.D.D. members didn't pick up on it.
Shame on you for green-lighting this encounter! *wagging finger while laughing jokingly*

 

[reapersaurus]

He's young and relatively inexperienced (well, not really, but he doesn't have a lot of experience with humanoids), and he's just run into a group of characters who were able to hurt him more than any other creatures have probably hurt him before.

Great ideas there, Wolfy.
But i kind of think that's trying to cram before the final exam.

My contention is that it is a criminal portrayal of a 150 year old creature to say he hasn't encountered humanoids before.
Where has he been living his whole life?
He found a sand cave at age 1 and has been hioding in it for 149 years? On a plane that has no humanoids? Even plane-shifting ones?

Thisa looks like a textbook case of the DM looking at the MM entry and just playing the dragon as a set of stats.
I thought that's what we in B.A.D.D. were against?

And Couldgatherer - i hear you when you say it's your first time at running a dragon.
I understand that.
I also understand that you're a reasonable person and can take suggestions and critique, and get better over time.

I'm just wondering what made you ignore 149 years of life for this dragon? While you may be new to running a dragon, the dragon isn't new at fighting... (you know what i mean? It's kind of weird, but that's what we do with RPG's - roleplay not only the personailty and experiences of creatures, but they're fighting styles as well. It's a stretch a lot of times.)

 

[Wolfspider]

But i kind of think that's trying to cram before the final exam.

Oh, I agree. I'm just working with the background that Cloudgatherer has described. In my own campaign, I would say that any dragon over 100 has plenty of experience with humanoids, and would in fact speak many languages and be familiar with the main faiths and political organizations in the areas surround its hunting ground.

Why would a dragon be concerned about such things? The answer is relatively simple: it would want to keep tabs on its competitors. Just as a wolf would know where the other predators are located in the same forest where it hunts, a dragon would likewise know about the other beings in its world that might be potential threats.

Dragons may not be social, but they understand society.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

Alright, another round of responses.

Again, if you are one of my player's, I don't suggest reading.








Reaper:
2) The blue doesn't have bull's strength. I could have used entropic shield and protection from good (but that would assume the dragon knew they were good). So I could have turned on entropic shield, but that's just one more spell I can use to heal the dragon as he turns around to finish off the party.

3) Not sure what the point is here. I still say a dragon's attack is better than just about any second level spell I can choose to have him cast during combat.

4) The party knew it was a blue, it has lit breath, and that's it. The party hasn't seen it cast spells.

5) No minions in this instance. The dragon is new to the area and hasn't gone about building his forces (so the possibility is still open).

6) I generated a random hoard as per the rules. I'm playing a relatively low magic game, so many of the NPCs in the world do not have a great deal of magic. The party does not have an abundance of magic items/armament, so the randomly generated treasure was fine. If he had anything worthwhile to use, he would have.

7) The party has the location of the den (assignment is to retreive a few gems from it and if they want to kill the dragon they are welcome to try). They have not reached the den yet and they will likely retreat at the next opportunity.

9) He has ventriloquism, he can use it later.

12) I'll work on it. The full attack action of the blue dragon is quite formidable though, especially considering his damage mostly came from ranged attacks. He can either fly-by, strike only once, then go into the air again or do a full round attack routine. Either results in roughly the same amount of damage for the dragon, but the full attack action results in more damage to his foes.

13) If the party wasn't hiding under the rock ledge, then that would be effective. Yes, it would be very dangerous to attack the dragon again, considering he now has considerable knowledge of what the party can do.

Common
The people of my campaign world have not had contact with dragons in a couple generations. I don't see anything wrong with the dragons shunning or flat out killing humans (or elves or others) to protect their territory to the north. Now that the dragon has met some formidable humans who do speak common (and draconic), he'll be more inclined to learn the language.

Has this dragon seen humanoids before? A couple dozen in the last few months. What has he been doing for 149 years? Living in the north among a slowly growing population of dragons. Dragons are territorial, and so this one decided to leave the increasingly cramped territory for a new area.

This looks like a textbook case of the DM looking at the MM entry and just playing the dragon as a set of stats.
I thought that's what we in B.A.D.D. were against?

I thought BADD was against "disposable dragons?" I did RP mine with a background in mind, had it kill a party member in combat, and escape to fight another day. I'm sorry if you don't like the background or find him unreasonable for not speaking Common, but I think he did quite well given the circumstances. Was I light on the party? I don't think so. Not only did a character die, they have to contend with the dragon again, a dragon who knows the tactics used against it the first time.

 

[Wolfspider]

Cloudgatherer, don't take my suggestions as being indications that I thought you did a poor job. I'm just trying to give you added material so that you can make the party's next encounter with the dragon even more exciting.

For what it's worth, I think you did a fine job. Considering what you've said about the dragon and its experience, I think you ran the dragon encounter. It's honestly hard to come up with good tactics on the fly, especially with a creature as complex as a dragon. That's why I hope B.A.D.D. and these discussions can give everyone more options.

Anyone know how I can get in touch with Jesse Decker? I think he's the current editor of Dragon Magazine. He wrote an excellent article on dragon tactics in the 25th anniversary issue. I thought I would invite him to come and give us more good advice.

 

[Ruvion]

As a member of BADD, considering Cloudgatherer's campaign setup, he ran that dragon nicely. When the dragon is more "mature" he will stay at range longer (doing fly-bys and trading spells), but as an adult dragon that only has formidable breath weapon as his sole effective range arsenal, Cloud was right in keeping him in melee to dish out the damage. This is especially true with a range fighting ranger with dragon as favored enemies.

Originally posted by Cloudgatherer:
That would just be evil.... I currently have their villain busy dealing with a goblin/orc invasion of his kingdom (in which he is the only known wizard).

Yes...I'm an evil DM.

Hm... maybe I could have the party come across the dragon and the wizard while they are discussing terms of an agreement. Might strike some fear into them (er, more fear that is).

But seriously, I think this would be a valid move (if your players are anything like mine... ) since most likely that your players will discuss their strengths and weaknesses and change their tactics on the dragon...This can be accomplished by levelling up a little more (entering a tough dungeon) or a more realistic approach may be, getting NPCs unknown to the dragon to help them. A second arcane caster would make a good addition...or if they are lucky, another ranger with dragon as their favored prey. You, as a DM, can limit the kind of NPC allies that populate your world...but a party can get lucky sometimes.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Not bad, the only thing I can think of is why the Blue Dragon didnt nail the ledge itself with a blast of his breath weapon to see if it will collapse on the party.

BTW, is it just me or does anyone else think any Dragon would love to get the energy substitution feat and have it apply to their breath weapon.

 

[Wolfspider]

Not bad, the only thing I can think of is why the Blue Dragon didnt nail the ledge itself with a blast of his breath weapon to see if it will collapse on the party.

Heh. Now that's just nasty.

BTW, is it just me or does anyone else think any Dragon would love to get the energy substitution feat and have it apply to their breath weapon.

Strange that you mention this. I was just thinking about this exact same thing earlier today.