DM Howard
Explorer
My reasons for having problems with 4th Edition Dungeons and Dragons were varied; it seemed, but never anything that I could pin down. I eventually came to the conclusion that I didn’t enjoy how “powered up” the characters seemed to be and how nothing seemed to threaten them at all. I didn’t enjoy the shopping mall feel of magic items and how they felt necessary to not mess up the mechanics of the game. Suffice it to say I left 4th Edition and would not DM any 4th Edition games and my group slowly started to come around to my way of thinking. We moved on to other systems such as Pathfinder and Fantasycraft.
I read this quoted on the forums here and I’ll repost it for the sake of the discussion:
The other day after reading this I came to the conclusion that 4th Edition was allowing for exactly what Gygax is talking about in this thread; to allow the PCs to be heroic in every sense of the word. No, not every setting or game of 4th Edition needs to be heroic, but it allows for it in a very well thought out way.
Yes, characters are hard to kill, but isn’t that the point? After all isn’t D&D about coming together to tell a story of heroes, villains, monsters, magic, and intrigue? The DM can still threaten the PCs mechanically, but the PCs must be threatened as individuals as well.
Perhaps the Dungeon Master’s Guide does not go into a whole lot of detail on this point and how to go about it, but maybe that’s part of the adventure, at least for the DM; finding where, who, or what the party’s weak spot is, either mechanically, or through the characters associations and/or character flaws.
Magic items used to bug me in how prevalent they seemed to be and how tied to the system they were, but on retrospect isn’t that part of the fun of Dungeons and Dragons? Having the party Open up that chest, discovering the thieves’ hidden cache, or finally defeating the arch villain and ransacking his fortress for new and more powerful equipment. I’m not bugged by the prevalence of magic items as much as I once was and now find them an integral part of my both mechanically and in the story.
Character powers never thrilled me either, until I realized that they are there to make it easier to do heroic things and to advance the story/and/or combat in an interesting and, as already stated, altogether heroic way. The same goes for rituals and perhaps I never found them useful because I never looked for interesting ways to use them.
In short I’ve found that I’ve come to respect and enjoy 4th Edition D&D all the more after a hiatus from it, and will be the one system that I will enjoy DMing and playing in the most. All I’ve said has been my own opinions of course and everyone has their own play style, but I believe that more play styles can be applied in 4th Edition than any other edition.
Dndungeoneer
I read this quoted on the forums here and I’ll repost it for the sake of the discussion:
Dear WD,
I read the article Combat and Armour Class by Roger Musson with considerable dismay. I t appears that the good gentleman does not know what D&D and is all about. Dungeons & Dragons is a fantasy game, of course, and this most reasonably indicates that statements regarding "realism" in a game must go out the window. (Quite frankly, there is no game with any true realism in it, or i t would be real and not a game. Folks seeking realism should go and participate in whatever the game is based on, if possible, viz. if they are looking for realism in wargames they should enlist in the military service.) I t got worse thereafter. D&D is a HEROIC fantasy game. Who can slit Conan's throat at a blow? The examples are too numerous to mention, but the point is that the game is aimed at allowing participants t o create a heroic character who is not subject to some fluke. Getting killed requires a lot of (mis-)play in most cases. How does the fighter escape the dragon's breath? The same way other superheroes do - bending a link of chain or slipping into an unnoticed crevass in the rock he was chained t o or whatever, i.e. the same way all other larger-than- life sword & sorcery heroes manage t o avoid certain death. In summation, most players find that the game of seeking and gaining, with the ensuing increase in character capability is the thing. Combat at best is something t o be done quickly so as t o get on with the fun, and I T MUST NOT BE LOADED SO AS TO GIVE PLAYERS NO CHANCE TO ESCAPE I F I T IS GOING AGAINST THEM. Neither, of course, must i t be a walkover. (And Conan is usually in a shirt of mail in battle!) Enough said.
Best Wishes, E. Gary Gygax, Lake Geneva,-USA.
The other day after reading this I came to the conclusion that 4th Edition was allowing for exactly what Gygax is talking about in this thread; to allow the PCs to be heroic in every sense of the word. No, not every setting or game of 4th Edition needs to be heroic, but it allows for it in a very well thought out way.
Yes, characters are hard to kill, but isn’t that the point? After all isn’t D&D about coming together to tell a story of heroes, villains, monsters, magic, and intrigue? The DM can still threaten the PCs mechanically, but the PCs must be threatened as individuals as well.
Perhaps the Dungeon Master’s Guide does not go into a whole lot of detail on this point and how to go about it, but maybe that’s part of the adventure, at least for the DM; finding where, who, or what the party’s weak spot is, either mechanically, or through the characters associations and/or character flaws.
Magic items used to bug me in how prevalent they seemed to be and how tied to the system they were, but on retrospect isn’t that part of the fun of Dungeons and Dragons? Having the party Open up that chest, discovering the thieves’ hidden cache, or finally defeating the arch villain and ransacking his fortress for new and more powerful equipment. I’m not bugged by the prevalence of magic items as much as I once was and now find them an integral part of my both mechanically and in the story.
Character powers never thrilled me either, until I realized that they are there to make it easier to do heroic things and to advance the story/and/or combat in an interesting and, as already stated, altogether heroic way. The same goes for rituals and perhaps I never found them useful because I never looked for interesting ways to use them.
In short I’ve found that I’ve come to respect and enjoy 4th Edition D&D all the more after a hiatus from it, and will be the one system that I will enjoy DMing and playing in the most. All I’ve said has been my own opinions of course and everyone has their own play style, but I believe that more play styles can be applied in 4th Edition than any other edition.
Dndungeoneer
