Mystic theurge vs pure wizard/cleric

[Someone]

I dont think anyone has mentioned it. But if you go Mystic Theurge DEFINITELY TAKE QUICKEN SPELL. You have more spell slots than man.

I´d not take quicken spell, or in fact any other high cost metamagic feat. Theurges have many spells, but the same or less higher level spells than a pure caster. I mean that, for example, a 15th level MT (barring munchkin combos) would have about 7-9 6th level spells, as opposed to a pure caster that would have 9-12 6th-8th level spells or more. A pure caster can metamagic the same number of high level spells, and can metamagic better spells.

However, he has a ton of lower (1st-4th) level spells. But obviously he can´t cast them all in battle. Look, then, for spell with long durations that you can cast outside of actual combat, or for ones that could be useful; you have the sheer number of slots to afford not to cast some of them.

 

[KarinsDad]

You seem to be confused about a couple of things.

1. A 15th level Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 9 can cast 6th level spells, a 15th level cleric or wizard can cast 8th level spells. So you are two spell levels behind, even then.

2. I'm fairly sure you can't ready an action to cast a spell on a missile mid-flight.

Actually, he is not the one confused.

1. A 15th level Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 9 can cast 6th level spells, a 15th level cleric or wizard can cast 8th level spells.

1a. A 16th level Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10 can cast 7th level spells, a 16th level cleric or wizard can cast 8th level spells.

1b. A 17th level Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 11 can cast 7th level spells, a 17th level cleric or wizard can cast 9th level spells.

1c. A 18th level Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 12 can cast 8th level spells, a 18th level cleric or wizard can cast 8th level spells.

1d. A 19th level Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 13 can cast 8th level spells, a 19th level cleric or wizard can cast 9th level spells.

1e. A 20th level Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 14 can cast 9th level spells, a 20th level cleric or wizard can cast 9th level spells.

So, at the following levels, he is:

15: 2 behind
16: 1 behind
17: 2 behind
18: 1 behind
19: 1 behind
20: 0 behind

That's more or less an average of one level of spells behind, not two.

2. Nothing in the rules prevents you from readying an action to cast a spell on a missile in mid-flight.

 

[KarinsDad]

I am going to disagree with most of the posters here.

Even at 9th level, the Mystic Theurge in our group held her own.

At higher level, sure, she would not have the super high level spells quite as early. But, she is only two levels behind half of the time and eventually none of the time.

With regard to caster level, a single feat allows a Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 9 to cast spells at a 15th level caster level.

The real issue is that she gives up the higher level spells (and number of medium level spells) and the special abilities of the class (either Wizard or Cleric) in order to cast a wider variety of spells.

This is a lot of versatility, especially with things like Quickened Spontaneous Cure spells for a Wizard.

You give up raw power. You gain the ability to handle more situations. It's balanced.

If you want slightly more raw power, another possibility is Cleric 3 / War Mage 3 / Mystic Theurge 9. That lowers the arcane spells a little more, but adds in more raw damage and more versatility with respect to doing damage. Plus, you gain an alternating higher level of spells each level (cleric at 16, war mage at 17, cleric at 18, etc., so you are gaining new spells every level) and you can wear a mythral breastplate and still cast your arcane spells.

And Cleric 3 / Specialized Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 9 will gain an extra arcane spell at each level (including the highest level) where the Cleric class can usually make up for the schools of magic that the Specialized Wizard denies.

Finally, Psion 3 / Wizard or Specialized Wizard 3 / Cerebremancer 9 can be even more powerful than the Mystic Theurge option.

 

[evilbob]

I agree with Shallown and a few others - in order to play a Mystic Thuerge well, you have to understand that your roll is SUPPORT. Multiclassing spellcasters is always a tough choice because the high-end levels for casters is where the payoff lies. Playing a MT, your spells are never going to be powerful enough to be a significant damage factor - but you have tons and tons of good support spells that are useful at any level. The best way to mess up a MT is to try to shine offensively... I've seen a MT player frustrate himself to no end because he constantly looks down at his gigantic spell sheet and claims he has nothing to cast - but what he means is that he has nothing that will help him do tons of damage. When you're level 7 (3/3/1) - which, by the way, is what I believe is the MOST painful MT-route level - and are still trying to throw around 2nd level wizard spells for damage, you're just wasting time. And time is honestly the most important thing to a MT, because they have so many tools at their disposal, but it takes them a while to get all their spells out there.

I also agree that taking metamagic is a tough choice, because you have so few high-level spells it's almost too much to ask to give them up for an even LOWER level spell to be boosted. However, everyone is right about Practiced Spellcaster. Improved Initiative is also not a bad feat, because getting to go earlier so that you can get off more spells is a great idea. I also like the idea of studying up on great arcane/divine combos, like the Spectral Hand thing.


KarinsDad: Actually, you're still the one confused. MT is a ten-level PrC. You cannot (without some creative class use, as discussed above) get to 9th level spells with both your arcane and divine classes. The best you can do is 5/5/10, which gives you a level 15 (8th level spells) casting class for both - or 4/7/10, which gives you 9th level in one.

I agree with your other points, though.

 

[Rkhet]

There are plenty of things you could do with level 8 slots other than cheesing PAO. Polar Ray. Horrid Wilting. Irresistible Dance. Simulacrum (although I suppose that's cheese too).

On a sidenote, what do you consider to be 'abusing' PAO? Because other than the turn-pebble-into-giant-lump-of-rock thing, there are many, many other uses for this spell, some quite powerful, that I suspect are intended.

Level 9 wizard spells are pretty much the most powerful things in the entire game, whether or not you 'abuse' it. Pure wizards and clerics have a huge jump in power between level 16 and 17, which the MT loses.

Taking MT delays 9th level spells by 3 levels. Which is to say, 5 levels from now. While the campaign will probably last more than two levels, there is a significant chance that you'll never see level 20. Even if you do, if the DM is unwilling to go Epic it'll be the end of the campaign.

On the same logic, being behind on spell-levels early on should be given more weight than being behind later on, since the later levels mightn't happen. So I don't agree with KarinsDad's analysis. It should translate more to being roughly 1.5 spell levels behind, perhaps more.

 

[HeavyG]

Actually, he is not the one confused.

(...)

1b. A 17th level Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 11 can cast 7th level spells, a 17th level cleric or wizard can cast 9th level spells.

1c. A 18th level Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 12 can cast 8th level spells, a 18th level cleric or wizard can cast 8th level spells.

1d. A 19th level Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 13 can cast 8th level spells, a 19th level cleric or wizard can cast 9th level spells.

1e. A 20th level Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 14 can cast 9th level spells, a 20th level cleric or wizard can cast 9th level spells.

You cannot take levels in MT past 10th level before turning epic, and anyway, the epic MT (levels 11 and up) does not continue to increase in both classes any more, AFAIK.

 

[IcyCool]

Actually, he is not the one confused.

1b. A 17th level Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 11 can cast 7th level spells, a 17th level cleric or wizard can cast 9th level spells.

1c. A 18th level Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 12 can cast 8th level spells, a 18th level cleric or wizard can cast 8th level spells.

1d. A 19th level Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 13 can cast 8th level spells, a 19th level cleric or wizard can cast 9th level spells.

1e. A 20th level Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 14 can cast 9th level spells, a 20th level cleric or wizard can cast 9th level spells.

So, at the following levels, he is:

15: 2 behind
16: 1 behind
17: 2 behind
18: 1 behind
19: 1 behind
20: 0 behind

That's more or less an average of one level of spells behind, not two.

2. Nothing in the rules prevents you from readying an action to cast a spell on a missile in mid-flight.

Seems like he isn't the only one confused.

You can't take more than 10 levels in Mystic Theurge. At least not until Epic levels. Epic Mystic Theurge advances one of your casting classes (arcane or divine) every odd level, and the other every even level.

For the 10 levels of Mystic Theurge, you will be behind as follows:
1 - 2 levels
2 - 1 level
3 - 2 levels
4 - 1 level
5 - 2 levels
6 - 1 level
7 - 2 levels
8 - 1 level
9 - 2 levels
10 - 1 level

For an average of 1.5 behind in spell levels. After that, you'll need to take varying levels of Cleric and Wizard for those last four levels before you get to epic levels. If you took even of both (2 and 2), that puts your final spell levels (at 20th character level) at 8th and 8th. You are only one level behind at that point, only because the spell levels cap at 9th pre-epic.

As to a readied action being able to affect a missile mid flight, I'm still not sure. I don't have my books on me, but I believe a readied action is resolved immediately before the action that triggers it. Could you quote the relevent bit of the PHB, DMG, or SRD?

 

[KarinsDad]

As to a readied action being able to affect a missile mid flight, I'm still not sure. I don't have my books on me, but I believe a readied action is resolved immediately before the action that triggers it. Could you quote the relevent bit of the PHB, DMG, or SRD?

You are correct.

It is RESOLVED before the other event.

It does not BEGIN before the other event.

Example:

"I will shoot any Orc that comes through the door."

An Orc moves 15 feet up to a door and then 5 feet through a door. Your readied action resolves before he continues his movement, but it does not resolve or begin before he began his initial movement.

Same with the missile. You can declare that you will cast your spell when the missile gets in the air and as long as it is still within range and still a valid target, no problem.

 

[KarinsDad]

Seems like he isn't the only one confused.

You can't take more than 10 levels in Mystic Theurge. At least not until Epic levels. Epic Mystic Theurge advances one of your casting classes (arcane or divine) every odd level, and the other every even level.

For the 10 levels of Mystic Theurge, you will be behind as follows:
1 - 2 levels
2 - 1 level
3 - 2 levels
4 - 1 level
5 - 2 levels
6 - 1 level
7 - 2 levels
8 - 1 level
9 - 2 levels
10 - 1 level

For an average of 1.5 behind in spell levels. After that, you'll need to take varying levels of Cleric and Wizard for those last four levels before you get to epic levels. If you took even of both (2 and 2), that puts your final spell levels (at 20th character level) at 8th and 8th. You are only one level behind at that point, only because the spell levels cap at 9th pre-epic.

My bad. I zoned on the "only 10 levels of MT". Opps.


With regard to the original poster's question, it still becomes:

15: 2 levels behind in both classes
16: 1 level behind in both classes
17: 2 levels behind in both classes
18: 1 level behind in primary class, 2 levels behind in secondary class
19: 1 level behind in primary class, 2 levels behind in secondary class
20: 0 levels behind in primary class, 2 levels behind in secondary class

It's still pretty close to an average of 1 spell level behind in the primary class if he focuses on taking levels (or prestige classes) in only one class after level 16.

But, although he is a spell level behind (usually), he has a lot of versatility to make up for that.

 

[KarinsDad]

On the same logic, being behind on spell-levels early on should be given more weight than being behind later on, since the later levels mightn't happen. So I don't agree with KarinsDad's analysis. It should translate more to being roughly 1.5 spell levels behind, perhaps more.

I agree with this if you are talking starting at level one, but here we are talking about starting at level 15.