Bendris Noulg
First Post
I'd be interested in seeing such stuff in rules format... I'd probably tweak and adjust for my own setting, as I've determined that such regions do exist, but I'd be interested none-the-less.
Native American Campaign Setting?
Count me in.
I once came up with a scenario which resulted in quasi Jewish Arapaho Samurai and Ninja Apache (long story, do a search on "mythusmage" in [soc.history.what-if]).
One of my current projects includes a Lakota/Mongol/Japanese Orc confederacy with early 19th century American frontier style settlements under their protection and rule. Now working on a couple of small towns on the southern frontier.
So if you'd like comments etc. on your work, let me know.
I once came up with a scenario which resulted in quasi Jewish Arapaho Samurai and Ninja Apache (long story, do a search on "mythusmage" in [soc.history.what-if]).
One of my current projects includes a Lakota/Mongol/Japanese Orc confederacy with early 19th century American frontier style settlements under their protection and rule. Now working on a couple of small towns on the southern frontier.
So if you'd like comments etc. on your work, let me know.
Tonguez
A suffusion of yellow
Claude Raines said:
My setting is Mythic Polynesia (and yes I am polynesian too) maybe I'll get it out of my head and into a shareable format one day.
And Angcuru um but with your attitude (as portrayed in the above post at least) the only 'pureblood' (whatever that means) with a tomahawk you'll likely to meet is one throwing it at you!
It would be way too tough to produce a generic Native American setting. Also, there would be questions about what one would shift for such a setting. We know how European-style campaign settings are different from historical Europe; work would have to be done to decide how fantasy America would be different from historic America.
However, I'd like to offer strong encouragement to someone doing a campaign setting of a particular linguistic/cultural group: Mayan, Uto-Aztecan, Inca, Iroquoian and Algonkian immediately stand out as having much potential. It might also be worthwhile doing an American culture at its height a long time before contact like the Mayan or Anasazi civilizations at their height or the Mexico Valley in the era of Teoteohican. Frankly, I'd be interested in collaborating with anyone contemplating such a project.
What I really want to discourage is someone producing some kind of cookie cutter primitive society setting with a vague generic mythology and allegedly common traditions. If someone is interested enough in the American past to buy a supplement, they're going to be looking for some real autheniticity and depth.
In my medieval America game, I set it in an imaginary American past in which many of the more outrageous stories of pre-Columbian contact were true (Chinese, Mormon, Celtic, etc.) and all pre-Columbian contacts were more important. I also made the American past one in which the metaphors and equivalencies we use to describe things today were more literally true -- terms like "nation" were taken very literally in my imaginary American past.
Another thing I exploited through the Mormon worldview was the idea that there is a Western Hemisphere equivalent for everything in the Eastern Hemisphere. Thus, when I centred my campaign on a grail quest, I made much of the importance of emeralds in Aztec mythology, the striking similarities between Iroquois and Celtic mythology and state theory and the Mormon equivalents of the key grail regalia items -- the lance, sword, etc.
However, I'd like to offer strong encouragement to someone doing a campaign setting of a particular linguistic/cultural group: Mayan, Uto-Aztecan, Inca, Iroquoian and Algonkian immediately stand out as having much potential. It might also be worthwhile doing an American culture at its height a long time before contact like the Mayan or Anasazi civilizations at their height or the Mexico Valley in the era of Teoteohican. Frankly, I'd be interested in collaborating with anyone contemplating such a project.
What I really want to discourage is someone producing some kind of cookie cutter primitive society setting with a vague generic mythology and allegedly common traditions. If someone is interested enough in the American past to buy a supplement, they're going to be looking for some real autheniticity and depth.
In my medieval America game, I set it in an imaginary American past in which many of the more outrageous stories of pre-Columbian contact were true (Chinese, Mormon, Celtic, etc.) and all pre-Columbian contacts were more important. I also made the American past one in which the metaphors and equivalencies we use to describe things today were more literally true -- terms like "nation" were taken very literally in my imaginary American past.
Another thing I exploited through the Mormon worldview was the idea that there is a Western Hemisphere equivalent for everything in the Eastern Hemisphere. Thus, when I centred my campaign on a grail quest, I made much of the importance of emeralds in Aztec mythology, the striking similarities between Iroquois and Celtic mythology and state theory and the Mormon equivalents of the key grail regalia items -- the lance, sword, etc.
johnsemlak
First Post
Ahem
It's for 2nd edition, but you can download the Maztica campaign setting here for free.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20020121x
It's for 2nd edition, but you can download the Maztica campaign setting here for free.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20020121x
mistergone
First Post
Yeah, nothing like trivializing native americans!
Shadowrun touched on native american gaming material for me enough. It was a neat plot twist there, and one of my characters was even part "amerind", like me! But, my character was also suave, deadly, and highly skilled. Unlike me.
Funny, but it's a touchy cultural thing. I don't know if I'd enjoy a game that was purely native american. There's just too much that could go wrong with it. Ironically, I'd rather just have elements of indians mixed with wild west settings (like Deadlands) or as I mentioned, Shadowrun.
Shadowrun touched on native american gaming material for me enough. It was a neat plot twist there, and one of my characters was even part "amerind", like me! But, my character was also suave, deadly, and highly skilled. Unlike me.
Funny, but it's a touchy cultural thing. I don't know if I'd enjoy a game that was purely native american. There's just too much that could go wrong with it. Ironically, I'd rather just have elements of indians mixed with wild west settings (like Deadlands) or as I mentioned, Shadowrun.
I've been toying with a fantasy-medieval-America setting for a while, and here's my humble opinion.
The market for non-European fantasy is smaller than the already-tiny RPG market. On the other hand, unless people try stepping out of the traditional mold, it will never change.
I know quite a few people like the idea of a "historically accurate" game about Native Americans. Well, there are quite a few problems with that, many of which I encountered while working on Nyambe:
Your creativity is chained to a stack of books. You get people nit-picking when you screw up a fact (as you will inevitably do). The lack of written languages among many of the people being studied will leave huge holes in your research material that you have no choice but to fill in with your imagination. Finally, and the most important - if you make it historical, it won't fit in with the HUGE backstory of material that is D&D. How do the Mohawks fit dragons or the ethereal/astral planes into their world-view, for example?
I think as long as the material is treated with the respect it deserves, it doesn't have to be any more accurate than Greyhawk is to medieval Europe.
The market for non-European fantasy is smaller than the already-tiny RPG market. On the other hand, unless people try stepping out of the traditional mold, it will never change.
I know quite a few people like the idea of a "historically accurate" game about Native Americans. Well, there are quite a few problems with that, many of which I encountered while working on Nyambe:
Your creativity is chained to a stack of books. You get people nit-picking when you screw up a fact (as you will inevitably do). The lack of written languages among many of the people being studied will leave huge holes in your research material that you have no choice but to fill in with your imagination. Finally, and the most important - if you make it historical, it won't fit in with the HUGE backstory of material that is D&D. How do the Mohawks fit dragons or the ethereal/astral planes into their world-view, for example?
I think as long as the material is treated with the respect it deserves, it doesn't have to be any more accurate than Greyhawk is to medieval Europe.
CWD says
I think you make some good points. Literal historical accuracy is a pointless thing to pursue. That said, I think that our modern preconceptions about pre-Columbian North America are so unhelpful that a lot of historical information about the main cultures and mythologies of the Americas would be an essential component to any half-decent game.
Nyambe is a good example of the kind of game I would see as problematic. It attempts to reduce the whole of Africa into a vague cultural cliche. Ghana, the Shona and other important cultures are omitted to the detriment of creating a world that attracts people because of the diversity of cultures and adventures that exist in an African-style setting.
I guess my point is that one produces far better material by digesting and understanding history and then deviating from it than by not bothering to understand the history and presenting a one-dimensional charicature.
Your statement about the Mohawk makes my point very nicely:
1. The Mohawks were the Guardians of the Eastern Door in the Iroquois confederacy. Their allies, the Seneca, were the Guardians of the Western Door. The Seneca mythology is, in fact, quite interested in dragons. The Meteor Fire Dragons enter into a number of Seneca stories. Thus, the Mohawks did hear stories about dragons.
2. The Ethereal Plane could fit very easily into the Iroquoian conception of the soul; each person is given two souls: the animating soul and the sensitive soul. The sensitive soul leaves the body during sleep, severe illness or death and flies around the world via a shadowy otherworld. One could easily use the Ethereal Plane for this.
When I'm talking about accuracy, I am simply suggesting that people base their depictions of Native Americans on their myths about themselves rather than our colonial myths about them.
I think you make some good points. Literal historical accuracy is a pointless thing to pursue. That said, I think that our modern preconceptions about pre-Columbian North America are so unhelpful that a lot of historical information about the main cultures and mythologies of the Americas would be an essential component to any half-decent game.
Nyambe is a good example of the kind of game I would see as problematic. It attempts to reduce the whole of Africa into a vague cultural cliche. Ghana, the Shona and other important cultures are omitted to the detriment of creating a world that attracts people because of the diversity of cultures and adventures that exist in an African-style setting.
I guess my point is that one produces far better material by digesting and understanding history and then deviating from it than by not bothering to understand the history and presenting a one-dimensional charicature.
Your statement about the Mohawk makes my point very nicely:
1. The Mohawks were the Guardians of the Eastern Door in the Iroquois confederacy. Their allies, the Seneca, were the Guardians of the Western Door. The Seneca mythology is, in fact, quite interested in dragons. The Meteor Fire Dragons enter into a number of Seneca stories. Thus, the Mohawks did hear stories about dragons.
2. The Ethereal Plane could fit very easily into the Iroquoian conception of the soul; each person is given two souls: the animating soul and the sensitive soul. The sensitive soul leaves the body during sleep, severe illness or death and flies around the world via a shadowy otherworld. One could easily use the Ethereal Plane for this.
When I'm talking about accuracy, I am simply suggesting that people base their depictions of Native Americans on their myths about themselves rather than our colonial myths about them.
Bendris Noulg
First Post
Rock on, Chris!
Ahem...
Oh, yeah.
Ahem...
Oh, yeah.
Which is why I haven't ever moved forward with my own regions in this regard; Good source material is so hard to find.fusangite said:
I agree. In any setting with magic and early contact the Americas will be much different places than they were in real life.
As an example: In the Mythus setting, Epic of Ærth the Eastern Woodland Vargaardian (North American Indian) nations are fairly well advanced, and two of them (the Iroquis and the Cherokee) are engaged in a war against the Æropan (European) nations along the coast, and close to driving them into the sea.
I should think the Fantasy Earth Mohawks would know about dragons. Now that I think of it, one of the prime reasons the Iroquis Confederacy came together on Dragon Earth was so the nations thereof could present a united front against the green dragon clan giving them such grief at the time. (The itinerant Tobacco medicine man with Call Lightning was very helpful in getting the dragons to back off too.)
And just for the heck of it, here's a what-if for you:
Thanks to judicious use of magic Bubonic Plague is stopped in its tracks. Indeed, the 12th and 13th centuries of Fantasy Earth Europe are much healthier and better fed. The increase in population leads to English, French, Basque, Irish, and Frisian fishermen going further afield in search of new fishing grounds. By the late 13th century they have established fishing villages on Newfoundland and Nova Scotia, which makes getting to and from the Grand Banks much easier for their small boats.
By the 14th century a number of the European settlements have achieved the status of towns, attracting trade from Europe, natives from the interior, and government interest. The Basque towns and villages establish a (tribal) government, while the other Europeans have administrators from back home set over them.
While all this is happening fishermen are exploring up and down the coast in search of yet more fish, discovering more natives and, in the north, whales and seals.
By the 16th century European settlements have been established as far south as real world Georgia, with whaling stations as far north as Baffin Island. Native settlements on the European model can be found further inland, and they are in contact with the tribes of the interior.
At the same time there has been something of a migration in the opposite direction. While Europe's American Indian population numbers but a few hundred at the time, it is a vital one, and growing. In addition, intermarriage in both directions is vigorous and fruitful. In the New World the European towns are effectively half Indian in population, with the Frisian settlements Indian in all but name.
In the meantime the Plains Indians have discovered the horse…
As an example: In the Mythus setting, Epic of Ærth the Eastern Woodland Vargaardian (North American Indian) nations are fairly well advanced, and two of them (the Iroquis and the Cherokee) are engaged in a war against the Æropan (European) nations along the coast, and close to driving them into the sea.
I should think the Fantasy Earth Mohawks would know about dragons. Now that I think of it, one of the prime reasons the Iroquis Confederacy came together on Dragon Earth was so the nations thereof could present a united front against the green dragon clan giving them such grief at the time. (The itinerant Tobacco medicine man with Call Lightning was very helpful in getting the dragons to back off too.
)And just for the heck of it, here's a what-if for you:
Thanks to judicious use of magic Bubonic Plague is stopped in its tracks. Indeed, the 12th and 13th centuries of Fantasy Earth Europe are much healthier and better fed. The increase in population leads to English, French, Basque, Irish, and Frisian fishermen going further afield in search of new fishing grounds. By the late 13th century they have established fishing villages on Newfoundland and Nova Scotia, which makes getting to and from the Grand Banks much easier for their small boats.
By the 14th century a number of the European settlements have achieved the status of towns, attracting trade from Europe, natives from the interior, and government interest. The Basque towns and villages establish a (tribal) government, while the other Europeans have administrators from back home set over them.
While all this is happening fishermen are exploring up and down the coast in search of yet more fish, discovering more natives and, in the north, whales and seals.
By the 16th century European settlements have been established as far south as real world Georgia, with whaling stations as far north as Baffin Island. Native settlements on the European model can be found further inland, and they are in contact with the tribes of the interior.
At the same time there has been something of a migration in the opposite direction. While Europe's American Indian population numbers but a few hundred at the time, it is a vital one, and growing. In addition, intermarriage in both directions is vigorous and fruitful. In the New World the European towns are effectively half Indian in population, with the Frisian settlements Indian in all but name.
In the meantime the Plains Indians have discovered the horse…
