Need a little help

[Grogtar]

Allo!

I've been wrestling with my GM a bit lately. Under the banner of "Story > Mechanics" he is refusing to use any pre-generated monster groups from the MM. This is not so much of a problem.

The problem is that he is taking monsters and giving them Class levels to adjust their CR.

A good example was last session when he took 12 Level 6 Brutte "Blackscale Bruiser" (MM 179), gave them all one level of Fighter and threw them against our level 5 party.

Monsters with Action Points and Encounter / Daily powers seemed crazy. The 3W damage daily power was doing 3d12 + 10, which is really deadly to a level 5 party.

Am I wrong in thinking that this isnt how it is supposed to be?

 

[Dreadite]

As I understood it, class templates tend to make foes into elites? I don't have my books with me to verify that, but I'm fairly certain.

With that comes an adjusted EXP cost for being elites, so what's happening is you're facing groups that outlevel you by an amazingly huge margin. You should be dying, probably in a few rounds.

 

[Sanzuo]

Allo!

I've been wrestling with my GM a bit lately. Under the banner of "Story > Mechanics" he is refusing to use any pre-generated monster groups from the MM. This is not so much of a problem.

The problem is that he is taking monsters and giving them Class levels to adjust their CR.

A good example was last session when he took 12 Level 6 Brutte "Blackscale Bruiser" (MM 179), gave them all one level of Fighter and threw them against our level 5 party.

Monsters with Action Points and Encounter / Daily powers seemed crazy. The 3W damage daily power was doing 3d12 + 10, which is really deadly to a level 5 party.

Am I wrong in thinking that this isnt how it is supposed to be?

Let me see if I understand this correctly...

When you say he gave them one level of fighter what do you mean? Because that's how it worked in 3e, not how it works in 4e.

When you add a class to an existing monster you are adding a template, not levels. It's more like adding a template in 3e.

Thing is; when you add a template, like a fighter class template, it makes the monster Elite if it wasn't already. So if he was giving each of these brutes a fighter template then you were not fighting 12 level 6 brutes, you were fighting 12 level 6 ELITES - with about double the normal hit points and +2 to most of their defenses. And yea, that's a really tough fight for a level 5 party. Sounds like you were not meant to survive, in fact.

The mobs themselves sound ok. A more balanced encounter would have probably been half that number of level 6 elite brutes. (According to the book, a standard encounter would have probably been only 2 level 6 elite brutes, but I think that's far too easy.)

3d12+10 (Brute strike I assume?) is a hunk of damage for sure, but it is only once a day from a given mob, honestly it's nothing a balanced group of level 5 PCs with a healer can't handle... unless there's 12 of them.

 

[Grogtar]

We had a few rounds of combat and then ran, retreated into a corridor and fought tactically while the mage's Ball of Fire 1st level Daily helped.

We killed a few of them, the fire ball dis amazing amounts of damage and they retreated. We used 85% of our expendable resrouces (potions, surges, 2nd winds).

So the adding class levels to monsters isnt that bad ?

As I understood it, class templates tend to make foes into elites? I don't have my books with me to verify that, but I'm fairly certain.

With that comes an adjusted EXP cost for being elites, so what's happening is you're facing groups that outlevel you by an amazingly huge margin. You should be dying, probably in a few rounds.

 

[Grogtar]

Let me see if I understand this correctly...

When you say he gave them one level of fighter what do you mean? Because that's how it worked in 3e, not how it works in 4e.

When you add a class to an existing monster you are adding a template, not levels. It's more like adding a template in 3e.

....

3d12+10 (Brute strike I assume?) is a hunk of damage for sure, but it is only once a day from a given mob, honestly it's nothing a balanced group of level 5 PCs with a healer can't handle... unless there's 12 of them.

Yes, levels right out of the PHB including a + to their HP equal to their CON stat. They had 2 handed +1 magic weapons and 3 mundane, large sized javelins each, all were wearing Plate armor.

One of the hardest parts was the Combat Challenge mark's. He could 'cross mark' so the melee characeters could not actually get to the targets that marked them, thus suffering the reach attack. Was brutal.

It was Brutte strike. Its reliable so he just kept using it untill he got it off.

 

[Sanzuo]

So the adding class levels to monsters isnt that bad ?

Let me reemphasize - you do NOT add class LEVELS. Monsters work completely differently than player characters. When you add a class to a monster, you add it as a TEMPLATE. Which makes it elite, which makes it as effective as about two monsters rolled into one.

Lets look at your example, I don't have the books in front of me so I will be abstracting the mechanics a bit;

12 level 6 brutes = 12 regular mobs.

This is already a tough fight for a level 5 party. Depending on the party composition, at the most optimal you will be doing a fighting retreat down a narrow corridor and hope the enemy surrenders before you do. (Sounds like what you described.)

12 level 6 brutes with the fighter template added = 24 regular mobs.

Now the brutes are all ELITE. Meaning they have DOUBLE hit points and improved defenses, not to mention more encounter and daily powers each. The fight is mechanically TWICE AS HARD because 1 elite = 2 normal creatures. For a normal level 5 party this would end up with the players getting massacred.

Adding a CLASS template to a monster is a BIG DEAL. It makes it much tougher. It's completely legitimate as far as the rules go, but your DM is sure running a really gritty game if he's doing this regularly. It sounds as though you were meant to retreat from that fight.

 

[Grogtar]

This is already a tough fight for a level 5 party. Depending on the party composition, at the most optimal you will be doing a fighting retreat down a narrow corridor and hope the enemy surrenders before you do. (Sounds like what you described.)

We have a Rogue (Dodger), Wizard (Illusionist), Feylock, Paladin and Fighter (whose only weapon is a short sword due to bieng captured last session).

We thought about the 'we were not meant to go this way' but the monsters chased us. If this was a GM hint not to go this way, a portcullis might've worked better.

Adding a CLASS template to a monster is a BIG DEAL. It makes it much tougher. It's completely legitimate as far as the rules go, but your DM is sure running a really gritty game if he's doing this regularly. It sounds as though you were meant to retreat from that fight.

Yeah, it was the full on class level. 2 at wills, 1 Encounter, 1 Daily. One action point, and the second wind ability (which they used). He said "they have one level of fighter, just like a 1st level fighter would. its a monster with a class level"

Does the Monster Manual template give the second wind ability somewhere that I cannot find it ?

 

[Daniel D. Fox]

Technically, your DM can add any template or ability he wants to a foe as it's his game. However, in the sake of fairness, you might want to ask him whether he's trying to make a fun game for himself or a fun game for everyone.

Cheers~

 

[Sanzuo]

Yeah, it was the full on class level. 2 at wills, 1 Encounter, 1 Daily. One action point, and the second wind ability (which they used). He said "they have one level of fighter, just like a 1st level fighter would. its a monster with a class level"

Does the Monster Manual template give the second wind ability somewhere that I cannot find it ?

Oh sweet jesus, it WAS what you described!

That's not right at all. It's fine if your DM feels story > rules, but when they completely disregard a core mechanic like that it can really mess up game balance.

No, you are right. The DM should not be able to add class levels to monsters at all. Monsters are designed differently than PCs. It sounds like he's just ignoring the rules. And most monsters do not get the second wind ability unless it explicitly says they do under the specific monster stat block. Even if they are elite.

I guess it's his prerogative if he wants to do things that way, but I know my players would leap down my throat if they though I was just arbitraily changing rules without justifying it.

I guess diplomatically find out if he's aware that he's not doing it right according to the rules. If he corrects himself then problem solved. If he IS aware and doesn't care to change his ways... well then I guess that's the kind of game he's running and my advice is to just go with it and try to have a good time.

One advantage of having a loose-with-the-rules DM is you can often get away with the same thing.

 

[avin]

I'm curious: adding a class level like this DM is doing, what would be the XP for a lv 5 monster. I'm just curious.