My experience with monks (played one up to level 13) and especially good roleplayed monks (you know the ones that disdain external enhancement such as magic equipment and favor their in class skills) is that they do not make good combatants. This is assuming average ability scores of course. I think you should go with the Tank (fighter, paladin, or barbarian).
Need Advice on Party Fighter
Kichwas
Half-breed, still living despite WotC racism
Whatever you do make sure you have a better ranged weapon than a sling.
Something with a lot of distance in it.
Other than that it's a matter of taste.
But you should never let the enemy get in under 60 feet alive unless you don't have a choice.
Something with a lot of distance in it.
Other than that it's a matter of taste.
But you should never let the enemy get in under 60 feet alive unless you don't have a choice.
Zerovoid
First Post
I second all these votes for human fighter, but I think you might be advised to use Bastard Sword and Shield. If you were in a party with a second warrior type, I'd say Greatsword, but since you'll be holding the line all by yourself, a higher defense might be preferable. A magical bastard sword with specialization and all sorts of other goodies can be pretty effective, and you'll stay alive longer too. Since the cleric will have to double as a tank pretty often, it might be best if he doesn't have to heal you every round.
Grim
First Post
given all the penalties, duel weilding isnt really effective. And melee combat is so much better than ranged because of the better dammage, even if you get a good bow. So the best choice is either a big 2 handed thing, or a big exotic thing and a shield... or a really, really, nice bow... but to protect your party, melee is definitly better...
Black Omega
First Post
I'll vote with the big nasty 2H Weapon/Heavy armor crowd.
Someone needs to actually kill your opponents and counting on the rogue with the sling for that is a bit dangerous. You'll be acting as the meat shield so the casters and rogue can do their thing without someone on top of them. They can heal and buff you, so inflicting damage is more inportant than maxing out AC with a shield. Tactically, I'd say a pure Fighter is best. You get all the feats, and all your stuff works with the heavy armor. Paladin could also work though, better saves and the Lay Hands can be a real plus when you need healing now.
Someone needs to actually kill your opponents and counting on the rogue with the sling for that is a bit dangerous. You'll be acting as the meat shield so the casters and rogue can do their thing without someone on top of them. They can heal and buff you, so inflicting damage is more inportant than maxing out AC with a shield. Tactically, I'd say a pure Fighter is best. You get all the feats, and all your stuff works with the heavy armor. Paladin could also work though, better saves and the Lay Hands can be a real plus when you need healing now.
MasterOfHeaven
First Post
Dual wielding is fine if you are going to use a straight Fighter. Just use a Double Weapon, like the Orcan Double Axe or a Two Bladed Sword. Note that dual wielding is better and better the more feats and magic you add to it... for example, a Two Bladed Sword gets a total of +4 from Weapon Specialization early on, since the damage is added to both attacks, while two handed weapons only get one +2. Likewise for magic bonuses.
If you're a Human, get the Exotic Weapon Profiency, and the Ambidexterity and TWF feats. If you're another race, get the Exotic Weapon Profiency: Two Bladed Sword and TWF, and just use it as a two handed weapon until level 2.
Assuming you're Human, after the above feats take the following path:
At level 3, get Weapon Focus: Two Bladed Sword, at level 4, Weapon Specialization: Two Bladed Sword, at level 6 add any two feats, depending on what Feat chain you're aiming for... IE, Power Attack-Cleave, Expertise-Improved Disarm, Dodge-Mobility and so on. At level 8 get Improved Critical: Two Bladed Sword, and at level 9 get Improved TWF.
After this your feat choices should be up to you, although I'd wager you'll want to get the new Greater TWF in the MoTW book when it comes out, whatever it is. For magic, get enchantments like Shocking/Flameburst/etc, etc. because you get an extra 1d6 on each attack. I'd also heavily consider getting the Speed enchantment on both heads of your weapon.
TWF is actually better than using a two hander at higher levels because of stuff like this, but it usually is too prohibitive for anyone but a Fighter to truly take advantage of. But if you're going for a straight Fighter, it's definitely an option you should consider.
If you're a Human, get the Exotic Weapon Profiency, and the Ambidexterity and TWF feats. If you're another race, get the Exotic Weapon Profiency: Two Bladed Sword and TWF, and just use it as a two handed weapon until level 2.
Assuming you're Human, after the above feats take the following path:
At level 3, get Weapon Focus: Two Bladed Sword, at level 4, Weapon Specialization: Two Bladed Sword, at level 6 add any two feats, depending on what Feat chain you're aiming for... IE, Power Attack-Cleave, Expertise-Improved Disarm, Dodge-Mobility and so on. At level 8 get Improved Critical: Two Bladed Sword, and at level 9 get Improved TWF.
After this your feat choices should be up to you, although I'd wager you'll want to get the new Greater TWF in the MoTW book when it comes out, whatever it is. For magic, get enchantments like Shocking/Flameburst/etc, etc. because you get an extra 1d6 on each attack. I'd also heavily consider getting the Speed enchantment on both heads of your weapon.
TWF is actually better than using a two hander at higher levels because of stuff like this, but it usually is too prohibitive for anyone but a Fighter to truly take advantage of. But if you're going for a straight Fighter, it's definitely an option you should consider.
Mustrum_Ridcully
Hero
Well, if you really want to profit from Two Weapon Fighting without loosing too much I suggest using a spiked Shield and a Longsword/Bastard Sword (or any other Medium Size Weapon) in the other hand. And than you have to get the feat "Shield Expert", to avoid losing your shield bonus when attacking with it.
(That is the way my ranger/fighter does it)
But I do not think that this is the best way to design a fighter.
You should be sure to have Int and Dex at 13 (or more), so you can gain all those nice fighter feats. (It is obvious that your Strength should be good, too ).
Depending on the number of supplements your group use, you might have problems finding new, good feats for your fighter when you lack these ability scores.
I had fighters with Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialisation. The damage makes you really awesome, but what happens when you have to take another weapon?
Oh, since you have a Cleric in your group (someone who typically wears heavy armor and does not have a good and flexible skill list), Fighter might be really the best decision. And not a High Dex Fighter. Later you probably will use Full Plate (at first level you won`t be able to pay the price, will you?)
If you want to Multiclass (really Multiclass, no Prestige Classes), then you should take the class at first level, since you might lose to many skill points...
(That is the way my ranger/fighter does it)
But I do not think that this is the best way to design a fighter.
You should be sure to have Int and Dex at 13 (or more), so you can gain all those nice fighter feats. (It is obvious that your Strength should be good, too
). Depending on the number of supplements your group use, you might have problems finding new, good feats for your fighter when you lack these ability scores.
I had fighters with Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialisation. The damage makes you really awesome, but what happens when you have to take another weapon?
Oh, since you have a Cleric in your group (someone who typically wears heavy armor and does not have a good and flexible skill list), Fighter might be really the best decision. And not a High Dex Fighter. Later you probably will use Full Plate (at first level you won`t be able to pay the price, will you?)
If you want to Multiclass (really Multiclass, no Prestige Classes), then you should take the class at first level, since you might lose to many skill points...
Zhure
First Post
vis-a-vis Monk
I know you're discounting a Monk as being too damage light, but if you've got good stats, a Half-Orc Monk starts out doing better double-fisted damage than most Rangers (since the Monk doesn't halve his STR bonus on the "off-hand").
By 10th level, a Half-Orc Monk with no magic items and a STR of 22 has a modified UBAB of +13/+10/+7, or flurry of blows at +11/+11/+8/+5 and is doing 1d10+6 on each hit. A tank fighter using a greatsword will be doing 2d6+11 but his BAB will be +17/+12. Dependent on the AC of the target, the Monk can be doing a lot more damage, plus has much better saves and a host of special abilities. A Ranger will be doing 1d10+6/1d6+3 at +14/+14/+11/+11. Better to hit than the monk, less damage by far. Again, dependent on the target's AC.
If you really want to be a sick monkey, take EWF: Three-sectional staff and his damage is 1d8+9. Not quite as good at higher levels as his unarmed strike, but good for levels 3-10.
A high-strength Monk is a tripping machine of doom, resistant to normal missiles and can't be disarmed. Throw in the Power Attack -> Cleave -> Great Cleave chain and he can mow through lesser opponents almost as fast as the Wizard's fireball. Weapon Focus unarmed will boost his to hit roll a bit as well, putting him only 3 off the Fighter by 10th level.
Hope that helps,
Greg
I know you're discounting a Monk as being too damage light, but if you've got good stats, a Half-Orc Monk starts out doing better double-fisted damage than most Rangers (since the Monk doesn't halve his STR bonus on the "off-hand").
By 10th level, a Half-Orc Monk with no magic items and a STR of 22 has a modified UBAB of +13/+10/+7, or flurry of blows at +11/+11/+8/+5 and is doing 1d10+6 on each hit. A tank fighter using a greatsword will be doing 2d6+11 but his BAB will be +17/+12. Dependent on the AC of the target, the Monk can be doing a lot more damage, plus has much better saves and a host of special abilities. A Ranger will be doing 1d10+6/1d6+3 at +14/+14/+11/+11. Better to hit than the monk, less damage by far. Again, dependent on the target's AC.
If you really want to be a sick monkey, take EWF: Three-sectional staff and his damage is 1d8+9. Not quite as good at higher levels as his unarmed strike, but good for levels 3-10.
A high-strength Monk is a tripping machine of doom, resistant to normal missiles and can't be disarmed. Throw in the Power Attack -> Cleave -> Great Cleave chain and he can mow through lesser opponents almost as fast as the Wizard's fireball. Weapon Focus unarmed will boost his to hit roll a bit as well, putting him only 3 off the Fighter by 10th level.
Hope that helps,
Greg
MasterOfHeaven
First Post
That's a comparison skewed heavily in favor of the Monk. First off, if you take away magic items, of course the Monk will come out ahead. Said Fighter would not just have a regular Greatsword, he will have a magic Greatsword, likely with the Keen abilities, or perhaps an energy type added onto his sword, making him do far more damage than the Monk.
Secondly, you discount the fact the Monk has to have higher scores in nearly every statistic to do as well in combat. The only statistics that are vital to a Fighter are Strength and Constitution. Even Dexterity is unnecessary if you are going to be in heavy armor. A Monk has to have high Strength, (for BAB and damage) high Dexterity, (AC) high Wisdom, (AC, and his special abilities) and high Constitution (Monks need this more than Fighters because of their lower HP).
Even if you are in a game that has high statistics on average, the Fighter still clearly wins in combat situations. You explicitly note that the Monk dealing more damage is dependent on the AC of a target. You forget to factor in the fact that a Fighter will be doing more damage on a lower AC target because of Power Attack, since he has the extra BAB to burn using it. The Monk has no such luxury, and against higher AC opponents will be lucky if he hits at all. Not to mention the fact he has to bypass damage reduction on quite a few creatures that the party will be facing.
He at this point will be forced to switch to his Three Section Staff, and if we're using Exotic Weapons in this analysis, why not give the Fighter the next step up for a two hander? 2d8 damage would be very nice to have, I think. Add to this Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and so on, and the Fighter clearly wins in damage dealing capacity. And that's the way it should be, since the Fighter is designed for that very role.
The Monk is great if you want a highly mobile martial artist with a good skill list and cool special abilities, but he does not (and should not) compete with the Fighter for sheer combat capability.
Secondly, you discount the fact the Monk has to have higher scores in nearly every statistic to do as well in combat. The only statistics that are vital to a Fighter are Strength and Constitution. Even Dexterity is unnecessary if you are going to be in heavy armor. A Monk has to have high Strength, (for BAB and damage) high Dexterity, (AC) high Wisdom, (AC, and his special abilities) and high Constitution (Monks need this more than Fighters because of their lower HP).
Even if you are in a game that has high statistics on average, the Fighter still clearly wins in combat situations. You explicitly note that the Monk dealing more damage is dependent on the AC of a target. You forget to factor in the fact that a Fighter will be doing more damage on a lower AC target because of Power Attack, since he has the extra BAB to burn using it. The Monk has no such luxury, and against higher AC opponents will be lucky if he hits at all. Not to mention the fact he has to bypass damage reduction on quite a few creatures that the party will be facing.
He at this point will be forced to switch to his Three Section Staff, and if we're using Exotic Weapons in this analysis, why not give the Fighter the next step up for a two hander? 2d8 damage would be very nice to have, I think. Add to this Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and so on, and the Fighter clearly wins in damage dealing capacity. And that's the way it should be, since the Fighter is designed for that very role.
The Monk is great if you want a highly mobile martial artist with a good skill list and cool special abilities, but he does not (and should not) compete with the Fighter for sheer combat capability.
Zhure
First Post
I really don't think this analysis is "highly skewed." Certainly it was designed to highlight the good qualities of the Monk. I thought that was clear from my opening statements.
I'm basing this on non-magical analysis, since the Fighter can get magic items, as can the monk. Ki straps? Monk's Belt or Belt of Giant Strength? They're all expensive but the monk's not buying magic arms or armor and will have some cash. Greater Magic Fang can grant him short-term boosts in to-hit, although only Druids have access to it.
[edit, forgot to mention...]
In fact, one could even postulate that a Monk can make better use of many magic items than can a tank Fighter. Guantlets of Dexterity don't grant much benefit to the guy in plate mail. A Periapt of Wisdom is of no great use to the Fighter, except for his Will saves and a few skills.
[end edit]
Note the monk in this example also has Power Attack. As he gets more attacks than the Fighter, he gains only a slightly smaller bonus to the less oft-hitting Fighter. His damage at +14/+9 will be 2d6+14 vs the Monk's +14/+11/+8 at 1d10+6. (The Fighter in this example -- as in the earlier one -- already was given Weapon Focus and Specialization, assuming he would take them with his primary attack; this time I gave Weapon Focus to the Monk, too). With Flurry, the Monk will do exactly the same average damage as the Fighter against the same AC, discounting criticals.
Even reconfiguring this to monkish weapons, the Monk still gets 1d6+6 for his attacks, which usually far outstrips the Ranger's best shot at TWF. Using a kama, nunchaku or siangham will let the monk add elemental damage and his average damage only goes down 2 per hit. It puts him behind the Fighter, but that's only an average difference of 8x(percentage chance to hit) off the Fighter for a full round.
These numbers all vary based on circumstance, AC of the target and critical stats for the weapon.
Elemental damage is the only real thing that gives the Fighter an edge, as there's no by-the-book method to grant this to the Monk that comes to mind, without multiclassing to Order of the Sacred Fist (which would require a level of Templar, Cleric or Druid). I'd rather leave multiclassing out of this as it obscures the issue. A monk weapon eliminates the elemental shortcoming.
While monkish weapons are rarer than fighter weapons, I don't think this is a dramatic factor, as most really powerful magic weapons are either contracted for or can be replicated with Greater Magic Weapon. Since the party Wizard seems to be a Transmuter, this shouldn't be a problem.
Monks require higher stats to be effective. I think this was already noted in my post but I'll reiterate it. Since the monk in question was granted a base STR of 20 as a half-orc, the Fighter was as well.
Constitution is a good secondary choice for both the Monk and the Fighter, meaning they will really only have a difference in hit points of 1 per level on average.
Dexterity is better for the Monk, but not required, as he can boost his AC with Bracers of Armor that the Fighter cannot really use.
Wisdom is only crucial for base AC and for his chance to stun. It's nice, but not necessary.
Charisma and Intelligence are as much dump stats for the Fighter as for the Monk. In fact, one could even say Intelligence is less important for the Monk as he gets 4 base skill points vs the Fighter's 2.
Given identical characteristics, the Monk will be close to the Fighter's combat stats, as already noted, but be behind a bit in to hit and a lot in AC (up to 5 points in extrimisagainst the greatsword wielder, but more likely only a point or two). Magic Vestment, Cat's Grace, and Mage Armor are all better used by this hypothetical Monk than the hypothetical Fighter. Note again, the party Wizard is a buffer.
The Fighter will be a better fighter than the Monk. I think everyone already realizes this. I was merely pointing out the Monk is capable of dealing large amounts of damage.
Hope that helps,
Greg
I'm basing this on non-magical analysis, since the Fighter can get magic items, as can the monk. Ki straps? Monk's Belt or Belt of Giant Strength? They're all expensive but the monk's not buying magic arms or armor and will have some cash. Greater Magic Fang can grant him short-term boosts in to-hit, although only Druids have access to it.
[edit, forgot to mention...]
In fact, one could even postulate that a Monk can make better use of many magic items than can a tank Fighter. Guantlets of Dexterity don't grant much benefit to the guy in plate mail. A Periapt of Wisdom is of no great use to the Fighter, except for his Will saves and a few skills.
[end edit]
Note the monk in this example also has Power Attack. As he gets more attacks than the Fighter, he gains only a slightly smaller bonus to the less oft-hitting Fighter. His damage at +14/+9 will be 2d6+14 vs the Monk's +14/+11/+8 at 1d10+6. (The Fighter in this example -- as in the earlier one -- already was given Weapon Focus and Specialization, assuming he would take them with his primary attack; this time I gave Weapon Focus to the Monk, too). With Flurry, the Monk will do exactly the same average damage as the Fighter against the same AC, discounting criticals.
Even reconfiguring this to monkish weapons, the Monk still gets 1d6+6 for his attacks, which usually far outstrips the Ranger's best shot at TWF. Using a kama, nunchaku or siangham will let the monk add elemental damage and his average damage only goes down 2 per hit. It puts him behind the Fighter, but that's only an average difference of 8x(percentage chance to hit) off the Fighter for a full round.
These numbers all vary based on circumstance, AC of the target and critical stats for the weapon.
Elemental damage is the only real thing that gives the Fighter an edge, as there's no by-the-book method to grant this to the Monk that comes to mind, without multiclassing to Order of the Sacred Fist (which would require a level of Templar, Cleric or Druid). I'd rather leave multiclassing out of this as it obscures the issue. A monk weapon eliminates the elemental shortcoming.
While monkish weapons are rarer than fighter weapons, I don't think this is a dramatic factor, as most really powerful magic weapons are either contracted for or can be replicated with Greater Magic Weapon. Since the party Wizard seems to be a Transmuter, this shouldn't be a problem.
Monks require higher stats to be effective. I think this was already noted in my post but I'll reiterate it. Since the monk in question was granted a base STR of 20 as a half-orc, the Fighter was as well.
Constitution is a good secondary choice for both the Monk and the Fighter, meaning they will really only have a difference in hit points of 1 per level on average.
Dexterity is better for the Monk, but not required, as he can boost his AC with Bracers of Armor that the Fighter cannot really use.
Wisdom is only crucial for base AC and for his chance to stun. It's nice, but not necessary.
Charisma and Intelligence are as much dump stats for the Fighter as for the Monk. In fact, one could even say Intelligence is less important for the Monk as he gets 4 base skill points vs the Fighter's 2.
Given identical characteristics, the Monk will be close to the Fighter's combat stats, as already noted, but be behind a bit in to hit and a lot in AC (up to 5 points in extrimisagainst the greatsword wielder, but more likely only a point or two). Magic Vestment, Cat's Grace, and Mage Armor are all better used by this hypothetical Monk than the hypothetical Fighter. Note again, the party Wizard is a buffer.
The Fighter will be a better fighter than the Monk. I think everyone already realizes this. I was merely pointing out the Monk is capable of dealing large amounts of damage.
Hope that helps,
Greg
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