Need help to build a proper druid.

[Eldorian]

Franktrollman, there is an explicit prohibition about becoming a Legendary Animal in 3.0, if you're using MotW Wildshape.

MotW page 11:
"At 5th level, a druid gains the spell-like ability to turn herself into a Small or Medium-size animal (but not a dire animal or a legendary animal)..."

I can't imagine it being clearer than that.

He's playing with a different set of rules than me.. in the 3.5 SRD description of wildshape

The new form’s Hit Dice can’t exceed the character’s druid level.

And in previous additions, one could not wildshape into legendary animals, as you so aptly pointed out. Since legendary animals are introduced in that book.. I think I'll rest my case. In 3.5, you can assume the form of legendary animals, provided you met the HD and Size restrictions. Therefore, the legendary ape is off limits.

As for the your silly belief that changing constitution scores while polymorphing doesn't modify HP, but having your con change after would, I would like to you real the the polymorph spell description in the PHB. It says you gain the new Con score of the new form, and no where does it mention Hit points. It does reference alter self, which says you keep your hit points and con score. Good, that means you keep your hit points, and get a new Con score, which then modifies your base hit points. Looks like Con is a worthless stat to 3.5 druids (who can heal themselves while wildshaped, and don't worry about getting killed while not wild shaped).

3.0 is another matter entirely. You seem to have found a loop hole, albeit one that would never slip past a DM's radar. If you have a DM that allows this loop hole, I feel sorry for the state of confusion he is in.

Eldorian Antar

 

[youspoonybard]

I understand...but he said there was NO restriction in 3.0. That was false.

 

[Thanee]

Yes. According to the new modifier.

Well, that's your interpretation, but not what they wrote there and not how the examples are worded!

If you just did things by delta, ...

Not things... hit points for (temporary) Constitution changes. That's a very specific case.

then every wizard should poison themselves down to within an inch of their life. Con reduction can't lower your hit points below 1 point per level, right? So if you drop your constitution down to 1 (and there are reliable ways to do that), you would have a -5 modifier. But you'd be a Wizard, so the maximum you could roll would be 4 on any of your hit dice. Nevertheless, when your Constitution was 1, you'd have 1 hit point per level - as that is the minimum.

Don't see a problem there. Your hit points get reduced below 0 technically, but are set to 1 per level, however when they raise again, you calculate from the actual hit points (the below 0 ones).

Bye
Thanee

 

[FrankTrollman]

Don't see a problem there. Your hit points get reduced below 0 technically, but are set to 1 per level, however when they raise again, you calculate from the actual hit points (the below 0 ones).

That could have been a way to word things if that's how it worked - but it's not how they did it.

though a penalty can never drop a Hit Die roll below 1

It doesn't fall to -2 and still count as 1, it never drops below 1 in the first place. Which brings us to how Constitution is actually handled in the rules - each hit die is individual, and gets modified individually. By the whole modifier, not the latest change in modifiers.

So your hit dice are 4, 3, 1, 2, 3: If you have a +2 modifier you have 23 hit points. If you lose a bunch of Constitution, and now have a -2 Con Modifier you have 6 hit points - not 5.

If your Constitution Modifier is changed to +5 and you don't recalculate hit points, you still have 6 hit points, if your Constitution modifier changes again to +6 and you recalculate hit points, your hit points are now 43. That's how it works in 3rd edition. That's how it works in 3.5 as well, but they dropped the idea that you could change Constitution and have it not affect hit points altogether (because it really didn't work well as we can clearly see).

As for the your silly belief that changing constitution scores while polymorphing doesn't modify HP, but having your con change after would, I would like to you real the the polymorph spell description in the PHB. It says you gain the new Con score of the new form, and no where does it mention Hit points. It does reference alter self, which says you keep your hit points and con score. Good, that means you keep your hit points, and get a new Con score, which then modifies your base hit points. Looks like Con is a worthless stat to 3.5 druids (who can heal themselves while wildshaped, and don't worry about getting killed while not wild shaped).

That would seem to be pretty unclear, as there are a number of slightly obscure statements. Custserv clears it up thusly:

Your hit points always change with your Constitution. Alter self means "base hit points".

That's good enough for me, and it had better be good enough for you as well - being as it is official and stuff. Base hit points - the things you roll on your actual hit dice - are not changed by Alter Self. Polymorph inherits that, and also does not change your base hit points. However, where Alter Self does not change your Constitution, Polymorph does, and thus while Alter Self does not change your total hit points - Polymorph sometimes will (if you select a form which has a markedly different Con from yourself.) Wildshape is based on Polymorph and does the same thing.

-Frank

 

[Asmo]

Here´s the final version of my 12 lvl druid. I present to you:
Eridric Fangbender N/G druid.
His stats: Str.13, Dex.17, Con.16, Int.11, Wis 22 and Cha.8. Hitpoints :88. (I rolled horribly, I couldn´t belive my eyes,several 1)
Init.+7. Attacks: Melee:11/6,(crit. 12-20) Ranged:12/7
Saves: Fort.11,Ref.7,Will.14.
4 magic items allowed,50 000 gp: Keen Scimitar +1, Hide armor +2, Winged Shield +3 and Periapt of Wisdom +4.
With Dodge and Barkskin final AC would be AC 29,not to bad.
Feats: Weapon Focus: Scimitar Improved Critical: Scimitar, Spell Penetration (those nasty buggers has Spellresistance!) Improved Initiative,Natural Spell and Dodge. The Dm allowed Iron Will as a free feat.
I think I´m going to like playing this guy,seems solid to me. I´m sure that I´ve overlooked something ,and there´s probably some more optimal build,but I want your opinons!!

Asmo

 

[FrankTrollman]

If you cast Greater Magic fang on yourself you have a +4 weapon. That +1 Keen Scimitar is probably not worth anything.

In fact, for less than the price of the +1 Keen Scimitar, you can have a Lesser Rod of Extension (Skip Hates Sorcerers page 78) - that'll give you a sweet +4 enhancement bonus on your face all day long. Then you can bite people for more better damage that'll go through nastier DR than the Scimitar could hope of matching.

-Frank

 

[Asmo]

That Rod of Extension -Greater Magic Fang idea sounds really sweet.What does it cost? ( I´m not sure that my DM would allow it,but it´s an interesting idea).

On a related matter;I´ve have a question about Wildshape-Improved Grab.

I think I got everything right up until what happens after I´ve established a grab. If I win the grapplecheck next round,what can I do then,and do I do normal damage with the claw I´m holding my opponent with? Can I hold my opponent ( and do normal damage with that claw), make an attack if an enemy enters my square (AOO,10 ft reach) and if said enemy closes in on me, make an attack with my other claw, and a bite?
I was reading the PHB about this and various other sources,but I´m not quite sure how to handle this. Glad for any clarifications.

Asmo

 

[Zaruthustran]

Here´s the final version of my 12 lvl druid. I present to you:
Eridric Fangbender N/G druid.
His stats: Str.13, Dex.17, Con.16, Int.11, Wis 22 and Cha.8. Hitpoints :88. (I rolled horribly, I couldn´t belive my eyes,several 1)
Init.+7. Attacks: Melee:11/6,(crit. 12-20) Ranged:12/7
Saves: Fort.11,Ref.7,Will.14.
4 magic items allowed,50 000 gp: Keen Scimitar +1, Hide armor +2, Winged Shield +3 and Periapt of Wisdom +4.
With Dodge and Barkskin final AC would be AC 29,not to bad.
Feats: Weapon Focus: Scimitar Improved Critical: Scimitar, Spell Penetration (those nasty buggers has Spellresistance!) Improved Initiative,Natural Spell and Dodge. The Dm allowed Iron Will as a free feat.
I think I´m going to like playing this guy,seems solid to me. I´m sure that I´ve overlooked something ,and there´s probably some more optimal build,but I want your opinons!!

Asmo

Well since you still want opinions I'll join in: see if you can rearrange your stats, items, and feats. Your selections are okay for a human fighter, but not so good for a druid.

In 3E you can stay wildshaped indefinitely and wildshape will give you access to high physical feats and good damage. So ditch the Scimitar feats. If you really want Weapon Focus and Imp Critical then take it in the weapon you'll use most: bite.

For magic items, ditch the keen scimitar and shield and get a Monk's Belt instead (13,000). It gives you the unarmed damage and AC bonus of a 5th level monk--which means you get to add your Wis bonus and an additional +1 to your AC, and if you shape into a Large animal you do 2d6 with an unarmed strike. While the idea of a bear doing karate is funny, it's also effective. Bonus: animals can wear belts (they're called "collars"). Add the "wild" ability to the armor, and get darkwood full plate +1 instead of hide.

Speaking of magic items, why did you chose a winged shield? You can turn into a bird!

For abilities, I'd go with:
Str.8, Dex.11, Con.16, Int.17, Wis 22 and Cha.13.

Str is useless to you. You'll be in dire lion shape (or some other scary animal) almost all the time. Dex is mostly useless except for the Init bonus--but you have Improved Init, and you'll be in a high-Dex animal shape all the time. Charisma is useful because your animal social skills depend on it, and you have Diplomacy as a class skill. Int is very useful for knowledge skill, languages, and bonus skill points. Druids have a decent skill list (a good list in 3.5) so you'll want all the Int you can get. Assuming human, with a 17 Int you can max out Wilderness Lore, Know: Nature, Spellcraft, Concentration, Handle Animal, Animal Empathy, Diplomacy, and Heal.

For feats, I'd go with:
Natural Spell, Scribe Scroll, Spell Penetration, Improved Initiative, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip. As a Large animal with high strength you'll be able to easily trip Medium foes.

So, in Dire Lion form you'd have
Str 25 Dex 15 Con 17 Int 17 Wis 22 Cha 13.
Your AC would be 30 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +6 Wis, +4 natural, +9 wild darkwood full plate)
Your trip attempt modifier is +11 vs. Medium opponents (+15 in 3.5).
Your unarmed attacks do 2d6+7, and you get 5 such attacks on a Pounce.
Your friends are a large Dire Lion and a Huge Dire Tiger. If they both pounce, they each get 5 attacks. That's 10 attacks, with two very good chances of the opponent becoming grappled (and thus losing its Dex bonus, which makes your party rogue very happy).
And you can cast spells. Like Ice Storm 4 times/day. Or Animal Growth on your feline pals (doubling their hit dice, increasing their BAB, increasing natural armor bonus, str, and con, and making the Tiger a Gargantuan creature with 35 Str and over 250 hit points).

I guess what I'm saying is that you're a Druid, not a fighter. Ditch the manufactured weapons and play to your strengths.

-z

 

[Zaruthustran]

That Rod of Extension -Greater Magic Fang idea sounds really sweet.What does it cost? ( I´m not sure that my DM would allow it,but it´s an interesting idea).

On a related matter;I´ve have a question about Wildshape-Improved Grab.

I think I got everything right up until what happens after I´ve established a grab. If I win the grapplecheck next round,what can I do then,and do I do normal damage with the claw I´m holding my opponent with? Can I hold my opponent ( and do normal damage with that claw), make an attack if an enemy enters my square (AOO,10 ft reach) and if said enemy closes in on me, make an attack with my other claw, and a bite?
I was reading the PHB about this and various other sources,but I´m not quite sure how to handle this. Glad for any clarifications.

Asmo

It's all in the PHB.

Look under "If you're grappling" on page 137. If you're grappling you must make a grapple check for all of your attacks. If you're a Dire Lion you have 5 such attacks (bite, claw, claw, rake, rake). You do normal damage if you chose the "Damage your opponent" option (look under Dire Lion).

Not sure what you mean by "Holding" an opponent. If you're grappling with an opponent then he (and you) are "grappled". Neither of you can move away unless you first succeed at a grapple check to Escape. You can also pin an opponent, which means everyone gets +4 to hit him and he can't hurt anyone. If he wins his next Escape grapple check he only breaks the pin but is still grappling. Using your last attack for a Pin attempt is a good idea.

Look under "grappling consequences" on page 136. If you're grappling you lose your Dex bonus and don't threaten squares. So no AoOs.

Look under "other grappling options". If you want to attack an adjacent opponent instead of the opponent you're grappling then you can. You're still grappling (no Dex bonus, can't move away) but you can still attack with a light weapon (like a bite or claw).

The Grapple section is a little confusing, but it's worth the time to read it in its entirety. Just remember that in a grapple you have to make succeed at grapple check (as an attack) before attempting actions. It's like a "can I do anything this round?" check.

-z

 

[FrankTrollman]

It's a Rod of Extension - Lesser. It lets you use Extend Spell for free on 3 spells of level 3 or less each day. It costs 5,400 gp. Greater Magic Fang happens to be a 3rd level spell, so you can just cast it, extended, every single day. Then you have a +4 weapon instead of a "normal" bite. It's an "official" item so long as you use Tome and Blood (or Skip Hates Sorcerers as we like to call it), it

Under 3rd Edition Druid Combat Rules, you can also use an Unarmed Strike with your normal BAB and have the damage effects of any one of your natural wepaons. If you bust out with Improved Unarmed Strike you can attack twice with a Wolf's Bite without provoking an Attack of Opportunity. The fact that it'll be a +4 weapon every single day is just gravy.

That's using the Skip Williams Unarmed/Armed/Natural Weapons rulings - which don't really make a lot of sense - but if your DM is using those things, there's no reason why you couldn't do it yourself.

-Frank