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New GSL Announcement

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Delta

First Post
JohnRTroy said:
I think you're seeing people object simply because it doesn't fit their definition of open. Open some of the fans is the OGL, and any clause that restricts it in any way is apparently unacceptable to some fans... Some people are into the "Open Gaming" meme as an ideal. To them, if it's not "viral", if it has anything like a revocation clause, expiration clause, or a content restrictions clause, it's not.

Once again John, there a very clear and straightforward definitions of what "open" means, that have been used for over 8 years in both game publishing and software, and you're just spreading fear, uncertainty, and doubt to confuse the issue.

It not like there's some mystery or debate on what "open" means. This page at OpenGamingFoundation.org has remained the same for 8 solid years, and a whole bunch of different licenses satisfy it ( http://opengamingfoundation.org/licenses.html ). Pretty simple:

1. The license must allow game rules and materials that use game rules to be freely copied, modified and distributed.
2. The license must ensure that material distributed using the license cannot have those permissions restricted in the future.
 

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La Bete

First Post
Moon-Lancer said:
I agree. The only way to hold sand is with the palm and not with the fist. Sure it works for the masses from time to time, but we tend to deify THE MAN more then most demographics.

Thats quite right. I've been known to offer burnt offerings to the Rouse in my household shrine.

Wait.. What?
 
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Tim Gray

First Post
Morrus said:
This is true; you certainly are worse off. However, you're not one of WotC's customers, 3.5 not being a game that they will be selling - you may as well be buying White Wolf products from their POV.

Not that that makes it any better for you - but we can understand why WotC don't want people to do what you want to do: to them, that's a lost customer.
Technical correction: he/she/it is already a WotC customer. They just won't be a repeat customer. Of course this only makes a practical difference if you think customer service includes an obligation to keep feeding you new publications, which it doesn't. ;)
 

SSquirrel

Explorer
Urizen said:
The point I was trying to make, is that I'm not going to trust Scott or Linae to have my best interests (or those of the kind people who have supported my company over the years) at heart, not becuase they might be horrible people (which I don't believe), but because they have an obligation to further the interests of their own company, whether they agree with the company or not.

Of course, the truly cynical view of things (no Scott and Linae this does NOT describe me) would be that they are actually in a great position. "Hi guys. We worked at it, pleaded, begged, cajoled but they would not budge on X Y and Z in the GSL. We did our best, but it wasn't enough :( " That allows them to be the good guys working for positive change, but shut out by The Man(tm). Much better than being viewed as untrustworthy "company people" that only claim to work for the game's benefit.

Again, I'm not calling them names and don't believe the last paragraph myself, but I wouldn't be surprised if that describes some folk's thought patterns about all this ;)
 

Wulf Ratbane

Adventurer
Nellisir said:
Just to be clear, are you using my quote as a jumping-off point for your observation, or are you saying I'm advocating your two contrary positions?

Sorry I wasn't around to clarify this sooner. I was just using your quote as a jumping off point.
 


Wulf Ratbane said:
There does seem to be the odd situation where some of the same folks are asserting two contrary things at the same time:

1) 3PP are insignificant in the grand scheme of things as compared to WotC, and their little splinter systems cannot possibly compete with 4e D&D;

2) 3PP are irreparably damaging WotC's 4e prospects by competing against them with countless little splinter systems.
Obviously the truth is somewhere in the middle, but with no real hard public data, we'll never know where on the spectrum that is. Without the real data, people will bring up whichever point rhetorically helps their current argument. :)

Plus, throwing terms like "insignificant" "cannot possibly" and "irreparably" does push those statements into being more opposite than they need to be. Especially considering the good comment above that each individual splinter game doesn't really compete, but the sum total of them can have a noticeable impact.

Furthermore, this new edition change
A) comes from a perpetually open edition,
B) has had more than it's fair share of negative reactions and PR missteps,
C) makes more dramatic changes to the game than any previous edition, and
D) might be licensed in a way such that some of the largest 3PPs like Green Ronin will be forced to not support the new edition without abandoning their bread & butter splinter games.

From all of that, D&D looks more vulnerable to competition than during most any of its history. I'd put it right up there with the worst days of TSR in it's downward spiral. Back then D&D was obviously in far worse shape, but now, however, D&D 4 products have to compete with D&D 3 products from 3PPs. However, even though it is more vulnerable at the moment, it's still a vulnerable 800 lb gorilla. So I don't think irreparable harm is being done, but I think unlike before, splinter games, even directly competing fantasy ones like Pathfinder RPG, can have more bottom line impact on D&D than they ever could have before.
 

JohnRTroy

Adventurer
Once again John, there a very clear and straightforward definitions of what "open" means, that have been used for over 8 years in both game publishing and software, and you're just spreading fear, uncertainty, and doubt to confuse the issue.

It not like there's some mystery or debate on what "open" means. This page at OpenGamingFoundation.org has remained the same for 8 solid years, and a whole bunch of different licenses satisfy it ( http://opengamingfoundation.org/licenses.html ). Pretty simple:

You're missing the point that I was pointing out the exact same fact to Orcus. I was pointing out two things in that original statement. First of all, I was warning Orcus that he shouldn't use the term "open" because according to that definition you quoted, the GSL isn't open.

Secondly, I was pointing out that not everybody is a strict follower of that site or uses the term open the same way. I assume that's why there is some confusion. I think people at WoTC and other third-party publishers don't have the Open Gaming Foundation bookmarked and memorized and perhaps have a looser view of the term open, mixing it the same way some people mix the terms "free software" and "open source", etc. I don't think it's fair to jump on people if they don't get the definitions right, because, hey, there's a lot of things people interpret differently.

I don't know where you're getting the idea I'm "spreading FUD" though.
 


Wulf Ratbane

Adventurer
JohnRTroy said:
I meant people, instead of publishers. Naturally, it is hotly debated amongst people.

Well, it's hotly debated by you, ad nauseam. I think you've established that in countless posts.

You said some publishers hated the OGL.

Can you tell me who? I'd like to know who this publisher is that feels he should be able to use Open Content without contributing back.

I'd like to know who these publishers are whose words you are anonymously co-opting into your tireless personal crusade against the OGL.

Barring that, give it a rest already.
 

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