NEW Immortals Handbook - Ascension thread

[shadethief]

When taking the Extra Level divine ability, is that level treated as an actual level, gaining HD, save bonuses, etc. or is it considered a virtual level, just granting the special abilities from the class chosen?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

But by definition Static Abilities should get a larger boost from a feat or divine ability? you're contravening this? Why?

No. Fluid abilities get the bigger boost because they always increase quicker for all characters. Therefore to balance that increase it should be bigger than a static bonus.

Another thing to note is that the MBSS abilities don't "start" weaker if the entity is prefabbed with a higher modifier than +20. No one would worry about True Strike with they could stack different MBSS abilities for fewer prerequisites.

If you have greater than 50 in a stat take the former and if not, take True Strike.

All in all, the opposite sides of the tables should be balanced against each other, IMO. If ACs are increased by Ability (which they should be), then Attacks should as well (otherwise ACs will soon far outstrip the attacks, given enough application of the MBSS abilities);

I disagree here...

likewise, Saves vs. DCs should be equal, too.

...and again.

The playtesting conclusively showed that you couldn't let DCs increase faster than saves because otherwise the game became a walkover for spellcasters.

When comparing the net results to True Strike, you come to one of two conclusions:
1) The MBSS are too powerful and need to be toned down.
2) True Strike is too weak and needs to be upped.

I disagree. MBSS is not too powerful because you need to power up your ability scores to keep getting greater benefit. Whereas True Strike is a one time thing.

If one were to attempt to address either conclusion, my suggestions would be:
1) All these abilities add rank only, effectively balancing them against each other and not stealing True Strike's proverbial thunder.
2) True Strike needs to do something other than +20; maybe double the key ability modifier to attacks with the given weapon. Looks a lot like the MBSS abilities, but none of those are keyed to physical scores; True Strike would key to Strength or Dex, whichever was used by the weapon in question.
i) Look at it this way, True Strike adds +20; it has prerequisites of Str 40 and Epic Focus. Those prereqs add up to +19 (+15 Str, +4 focus). If you just rewrite it so that True Strike re-adds the key ability modifier for the weapon, it will water down a bit (+15 at minimum, rather than +20), but it will keep in line with the MBSS abilities and make everyone happy, especially me.

I may remove the strength prereq for True Strike, but thats it.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy shadethief!

When taking the Extra Level divine ability, is that level treated as an actual level, gaining HD, save bonuses, etc. or is it considered a virtual level, just granting the special abilities from the class chosen?

Its considered a full level - you even gain EXP. I'd also venture a potential increase to artifact power if you are using those rules.

 

[Pssthpok]

Okay; I'll disagree to agree on this as well. Rule Zero here I come.

Removing the Strength prerequisite for True Strike goes an inch when it needs a full foot, but do as you will; Rule Zero once again.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Okay; I'll disagree to agree on this as well. Rule Zero here I come.

Removing the Strength prerequisite for True Strike goes an inch when it needs a full foot, but do as you will; Rule Zero once again.

I understand your point, however, fluid scores increase at a faster rate overall, therefore ignoring that means they won't get as much bang for their buck.

If we over compensate AC and DC by the same amount (which in theory sounds balanced) you get ridiculously lopsided scores whereby PCs (or NPCs) will take these abilities and their DCs will just roll right over you.

 

[Fieari]

Its considered a full level - you even gain EXP. I'd also venture a potential increase to artifact power if you are using those rules.

But, I hope, it DOESN'T increase your ECL, because it's factored into the fact that it comes from a Divine Ability you otherwise earned. So, if you will, it also grants an LA of -1.

 

[Pssthpok]

Hey, UK.

No. Fluid abilities get the bigger boost because they always increase quicker for all characters. Therefore to balance that increase it should be bigger than a static bonus.

I'm sorry to bring this up again... but this makes no sense. Fluid bonuses are always getting better. So why would one need a divine ability that improves upon these self-improving bonuses more so than the same kind of divine ability would improve upon a bonus that hangs in the static until something nudges it along?

Point for point, static abilities are always falling behind; when you consider that of the four things we're talking about, two are static and two are fluid, and one fluid opposes directly one of the statics.
Body (+rank AC) opposes Mind (+ability Attack) - but Attacks almost always go up. Using common denominator to cancel out keyed ability modifiers, we're left with AC not having something like BAB, putting it at a gross disadvantage. Pandering to attack while in the same breath chumping AC only exacerbates the disparities that inevitably arise in epic and immortal play.
Soul (+ability saves) opposes Spirit (+rank DCs) - but again the SDA that gives the ability boost gives it to the facet that already sees a natural gain. This natural gain is precisely why the boost should be smaller; saves continue to grow and can be jumped up all around the board, from bards to CoRs (as we have discussed elsewere), but DCs (like AC) require focused concentration of certain abilities and feats to see any type of growth. But again your RAW panders to the ability that's already getting a "free ride", which serves again to exacerbate the disparities.

This post is my last word; if you refuse to see my reasoning or insist that some (uncertified, unaccredited, unrecorded, undisclosed) playtest "proves" that it ought to be the way you have it in Ascension (typos and edits not withstanding), then I'm going to have to houserule you, big time. I dislike houseruling, by and large, because it means that nothing is sacred and that it's really anyone's game, but going this route with MBSS is a bad move.

Frankly, these abilities... well, they stick in my craw. I mean, how does having a divine ability alter circumstances at all (ala Cunning Etc.); circumstances are external factors.
How does having an Intellectual Spirit not factor into its effects your Intelligence somehow?
How can adding +15 to DCs really be fair, even if I think it's the only way to be fair?
How can you think that adding +15 to save DCs is fair, given your recent move to change DC formulation around since you've been coming to numbers that are clearly too high?
How can True Strike at will be fair, given Uncanny Power Attack and the disparity that grows from ACs and Attacks at epic levels?
I don't think they are fair.

I think Uncanny Power Attack could stand to be a divine ability. We've had it in our game since the last quarter of '06 and it proves very strong... VERY strong for an epic feat.
I think MBSS should be + rank, and there be only these four: Hand (+ rank to Atk), Body (+ rank to AC), Soul (+ rank to saves), and Spirit (+ rank DCs): balanced against each other, and not too crazy until the crazy is pretty much universal across the board and thus cancels out, to a degree.
I think True Strike should be cut and subsumed into Hand.

That's my last word on it, tho.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Pssthpok has a pretty strong point. The MBSS abilities are lopsided as of now. The ones that grant +Rank are grossly inferior to the +Ability ones. They really need to be ALL either +Ability or +Rank. (Although I think all +Ability powers gets out of control fast, its the only way to keep the mechanics and flavor in balance. Or you could say they grant a bonus equal to your [Ability Score] bonus, or your divine rank, whichever is lower. Or something...)

That, and back to the DC/Saves/Resistance bonus issue, If X is overpowering against Y, don't give Overpowering Bonuses to X and not Y. Conversely, try not to fall into the Arms Race strategy WotC Uses in D&D: Class X is overpowered, Class Y is weak. Lets print game material to Help Y. Now Y is Overpowered... (Or the Material also directly helps X)
IE U_K, If you are really absolutely certain that making saving throws at epic levels WILL be a problem, You are writing Ascension, so throw 'em some bones. It doesn't have to be too strong, but it does have to be enough to 'bridge the gap' until the more potent 'end game' powers become available. (Transiliant Fortitude)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

But, I hope, it DOESN'T increase your ECL, because it's factored into the fact that it comes from a Divine Ability you otherwise earned. So, if you will, it also grants an LA of -1.

Each divine ability directly/indirectly increases your, so that would be already factored into any divinity template - so in that sense ECL would not increase.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey, UK.

Hiya mate!

I'm sorry to bring this up again...

No apologies necessary.

but this makes no sense. Fluid bonuses are always getting better. So why would one need a divine ability that improves upon these self-improving bonuses more so than the same kind of divine ability would improve upon a bonus that hangs in the static until something nudges it along?

Think of it in terms of a percentage thing.

Something that gives a 30% increase to a fluid score needs to be higher than something which adds 30% to a static score.

Point for point, static abilities are always falling behind; when you consider that of the four things we're talking about, two are static and two are fluid, and one fluid opposes directly one of the statics.

Yep.

Body (+rank AC) opposes Mind (+ability Attack) - but Attacks almost always go up. Using common denominator to cancel out keyed ability modifiers, we're left with AC not having something like BAB, putting it at a gross disadvantage. Pandering to attack while in the same breath chumping AC only exacerbates the disparities that inevitably arise in epic and immortal play.

Not quite, because higher Attack Bonus is preferable at epic levels. As levels increase you will hit proportionately more often, but deal proportionately less damage.

Therefore if you subscribe to the (futile in any case) idea that AC and Attack Bonus should increase in tandem, then you will bring about a situation where your fights take longer, and longer and longer. Long fights sound epic, but in practice they just grind the game down to a standstill.

Soul (+ability saves) opposes Spirit (+rank DCs) - but again the SDA that gives the ability boost gives it to the facet that already sees a natural gain. This natural gain is precisely why the boost should be smaller; saves continue to grow and can be jumped up all around the board, from bards to CoRs (as we have discussed elsewere), but DCs (like AC) require focused concentration of certain abilities and feats to see any type of growth. But again your RAW panders to the ability that's already getting a "free ride", which serves again to exacerbate the disparities.

The problem with big DC boosting abilities is that everyone takes them and then they win. End of. They only have to bump one ability score up whereas you need to bump three.

Then you FORCE people into a DC/Saving Throw war just to try and stay competitive, which they won't be because you can't boost all your ability scores to keep pace with the Super-sorcerer who only concentrates on his Charisma.

This post is my last word; if you refuse to see my reasoning or insist that some (uncertified, unaccredited, unrecorded, undisclosed) playtest "proves" that it ought to be the way you have it in Ascension (typos and edits not withstanding), then I'm going to have to houserule you, big time. I dislike houseruling, by and large, because it means that nothing is sacred and that it's really anyone's game, but going this route with MBSS is a bad move.

Well then you are going to have to houserule me on these abilities, because your reasoning is flawed.

Frankly, these abilities... well, they stick in my craw.

Just disallow them then.

I mean, how does having a divine ability alter circumstances at all (ala Cunning Etc.); circumstances are external factors.

It allows you to manipulate circumstances in your favour, like maneouvering combat so that your opponent is hampered by geography, etc.

How does having an Intellectual Spirit not factor into its effects your Intelligence somehow?

Intellectual Spirit means that you know how to apply your intelligence better in certain areas.

Just like its possible to get 2:1 with power attack.

How can adding +15 to DCs really be fair, even if I think it's the only way to be fair?

Obviously it isn't fair.

How can you think that adding +15 to save DCs is fair, given your recent move to change DC formulation around since you've been coming to numbers that are clearly too high?

Do you mean Saves or DCs, calling things Save DCs is only going to confuse.

I'm guessing you mean DCs, but since I am not adding +15 to DCs unless that deity was a greater power, I fail to see the relevance - hence my confusion.

How can True Strike at will be fair, given Uncanny Power Attack and the disparity that grows from ACs and Attacks at epic levels?

Thats a disparity which should be courted. Otherwise fights will take forever.

I think Uncanny Power Attack could stand to be a divine ability. We've had it in our game since the last quarter of '06 and it proves very strong... VERY strong for an epic feat.

Its a possibility, some of these are betwixt and between. Other times combinations of abilities can mess your balance up.

I think MBSS should be + rank, and there be only these four: Hand (+ rank to Atk), Body (+ rank to AC), Soul (+ rank to saves), and Spirit (+ rank DCs): balanced against each other, and not too crazy until the crazy is pretty much universal across the board and thus cancels out, to a degree.

If you do that, the Attack and Save boosts become next to worthless, especially at lower divine ranks.

I think True Strike should be cut and subsumed into Hand.

I don't really see the big problem with True Strike.

That's my last word on it, tho.