NEW Immortals Handbook - Ascension thread

[Alzrius]

While most Elder Evils are between the CR 16-25 range, I think a proper world threat would be more akin to CR 32-50. Based on the assumption that 30th-level characters should be one in a billion and thus any true world threat would likely be intercepted by the worlds top heroes (or villains) who would be around that level of power.

So the main 'trick' isn't in coming up with more powerful Elder Evils (that bits fairly straightforward), but rather creating its minions as something more than a speed bump.

U_K, for the most part I agree with your stance regarding 30th-level characters as being the strongest that the world has to offer (I'd say it was a tad higher, but that's too minor a point to argue). My point of contention, however, is at what point do the gods themselves get involved?

If there's an entity (of CR 32-50) capable of literally rending the world asunder, or "just" killing everything that lives on it, why don't the gods themselves step down to fight it? There's no question of the gods having a vested interest in the world not being destroyed, and while one or two gods might be seriously threatened, if even a moderately-sized pantheon appeared to deal with the threat, it doesn't seem like it'd be that hard to defeat.

That problem has always bothered me; at some point the threat potential should be high enough that the deities show up en masse to deal with it, and few monsters can stand up to that kind of force (or at least, they'd need a CR of about 200 or so to fight a pantheon, I think).

 

[mercucio]

U_K, for the most part I agree with your stance regarding 30th-level characters as being the strongest that the world has to offer (I'd say it was a tad higher, but that's too minor a point to argue). My point of contention, however, is at what point do the gods themselves get involved?

In the case of Elder Evils there specifically have powers that make them immune to divine sensing as well as the ability to ignore divine magic, prevent the recovery of divine magic, ect depending on what kind of additional special abilities you give them. As a result gods *aren't* capable of facing them and must rely on mortals to do so.

 

[Alzrius]

In the case of Elder Evils there specifically have powers that make them immune to divine sensing as well as the ability to ignore divine magic, prevent the recovery of divine magic, ect depending on what kind of additional special abilities you give them. As a result gods *aren't* capable of facing them and must rely on mortals to do so.

I admit I haven't read the book, but that still seems flimsy. Being blind to divine senses is good, until some mortal worshipper notices what's going on and prays about it. Being immune to divine spells might be somewhat helpful, but gods have more than just spells - they have divine special powers (many of which aren't directly offensive, but boost the god's own prowess, making them still better equipped to attack it than mortals are).

Even if it was a crappy book, take the "Core" pantheon in D&Dg - if they were all assembled to stop the world from being destroyed by a singularly powerful monster, just how strong would that monster have to be to be a serious threat to all of them at once?

 

[jedrious]

The psionics portfolio is close, except, for 5 details.

1. All your spell-like abilities become psi-like abilities? This should probably be...all your spells and spell-like abilities become psionic powers and spell-like abilities, because some individuals may use both spells and psionics.

Or it should be dropped altogether since psionics and magic aren't necessarily opposing forces, just two different ways of manipulating the cosmos.

Kinda like the difference between using open flame or steam to cook your food.

2. Becoming crystalline doesn't make much sense as psionics is all about transcending the limitations of the corporeal form. While a crystalline demi-plane makes sense, it doesn't make sense for you to be bound into physical. It would only make sense if your second portfolio was Mountain.

3. While divine [effects] are nice in their own way, it might be more appropriate to have force [effects] instead since it falls more in line with psionics anyways.

4. No damage reduction? WTF? Even most psionic monsters get damage reduction. Crystalline structures certainly get this as well. Although I'd make them incorporeal myself and strip them of their natural armor and damage reduction, since incorporeal beings don't get either normally.

5. The psi-like abilities are not really geared towards traditional mentalism (telepathy).

I'd probably make a separate Portfolio for each psionic discipline. It would make a lot more sense and add more variety. But ur definitely on the right track.

The psionic portfolios should oppose each other, rather than magic.

Telepathy (mind) would oppose psychometabolism (body).

Metacreativity (creation of new things) would oppose psychokinesis (manipulation of existing things).

Clairsentience (staying and learning) would oppose psychoportation (going and experiencing).


Telepathy...Cha draining attacks (makes victims more pliable).

Appearance:Incorporeality

Psychometabolism...Con draining attacks (makes victims weaker).

Appearance: Variable?

Metacreativity...Int draining attacks (makes victims less likely to think of new things to construct)

Appearance:Variable?

Psychokinesis...Str draining attacks (makes victims less able to move and lift things and resist your force effects)

Appearance: Pure Force.

Clairsentience...wis draining attacks (makes victims less able to understand what they are seeing)

Appearance: Floating Brain? "I know everything!!!"

Psychoportation...dex draining attacks (makes victims progressively slower and clumsier)

Appearance: Streamlined?

Perhaps the attacks can be blended...Force [effect] + Withering [Ability] [Effect] or some such nonsense. There is no set rule stating that it couldn't be some mixture.

if you do a portfolio for every discipline of Psionics, then you have to do every school of magic as well and you're even more derranged than I thought if you want to devote that much space to those, making a GENERAL Psionics Portfolio makes much more sense from a publishing point of view, as well as, making them oppossed opens up more RP aspects, and removing transparency also promotes that

 

[Upper_Krust]

Firstly, thanks to jedrious for the Psionic Portfolio. Would everyone prefer to see that in Ascension? I admit my SCience Portfolio was the weakest of the bunch.

Howdy Alzrius!

U_K, for the most part I agree with your stance regarding 30th-level characters as being the strongest that the world has to offer (I'd say it was a tad higher, but that's too minor a point to argue).

Well my thoughts are that the highest on any planet would be 33rd-level. But 30th seems a good marker and fits nicely with 4E.

My point of contention, however, is at what point do the gods themselves get involved?

If there's an entity (of CR 32-50) capable of literally rending the world asunder, or "just" killing everything that lives on it, why don't the gods themselves step down to fight it? There's no question of the gods having a vested interest in the world not being destroyed, and while one or two gods might be seriously threatened, if even a moderately-sized pantheon appeared to deal with the threat, it doesn't seem like it'd be that hard to defeat.

That problem has always bothered me; at some point the threat potential should be high enough that the deities show up en masse to deal with it, and few monsters can stand up to that kind of force (or at least, they'd need a CR of about 200 or so to fight a pantheon, I think).

I think it pretty much depends on your PCs, and how you want to plan out your adventures/campaign.

I mean if your PCs are 30th-level then theres no point having a CR 200 monster just come in and wipe everyone out, or come in and start to wipe everyone out only to have some pantheon intercede in a "deus ex machina" moment to kill it. Either way it removes your PCs from the equation.

Of course you can run the adventure with the idea that the PCs have to stop the Elder Evil indirectly (because the evil itself is much too powerful). You might only have to fight an Aspect or Avatar of the actual 'Evil' (amongst other servants such as high-level cultists and so forth). Or you might have to call in some help to take on the Elder Evil.

I remember when our own party had to tackle an Intruder (- think Mega Draeden) that was about to eat Oerth. While the battle with the monster itself only lasted one round (Entire Norse Pantheon and the PCs vs. the Monster). The adventure itself was fleshed out by the necessity to gain a cosmic artifact capable of stopping it, that was held by a force of high level Mad Cultists, guarded by Talos the Triple Iron Golem and ultimately our groups involvement (at the time demigods) meant that the god of the cultists (Incabulos), who wanted Oerth "put to sleep", acted in opposition to us. In effect he was gated in to have words with us...his last.

In that particular case, the Elder Evil was way beyond the PC party...and even way beyond an entire Norse Pantheon (they were just there to distract it for a round while we got into position to use the cosmic artifact).

So Elder Evils deals with (or purportedly deals with) world ending threats. But really this just means something at the upper limit of your PCs potential encounters. Its relatively easy to raise the bar and have a galaxy ending threat or a universe ending threat (for more powerful immortals).

So one decision you have to make is whether the PCs will directly fight the Elder Evil at the denoument of the adventure, whether they will be aided by others in the final fight or whether a direct fight must be avoided at all costs otherwise everyones going to die (in such cases a plot device is needed to solve the outcome).

This way you can have the Elder Evil at the upper limit of PC power (Let the PCs fight it), way above the power of the PCs (The PCs need help to fight it) or so powerful you won't even have stats for it (Plot Device time).

 

[dante58701]

if you do a portfolio for every discipline of Psionics, then you have to do every school of magic as well and you're even more derranged than I thought if you want to devote that much space to those, making a GENERAL Psionics Portfolio makes much more sense from a publishing point of view, as well as, making them oppossed opens up more RP aspects, and removing transparency also promotes that

Not so actually, as Psionic deities really should not have Clerics. Clerics use magic. Instead, psionic deities should simply be the most powerful representatives of a particular discipline.

I just don't see psionic deities granting people spells or even acquiring power through worship. I see them as being more like powerful psionic entities. I would strip them of the ability to grant spells and give them their entire discipline as psi-like abilities, rather than giving them normal portfolios.

 

[jedrious]

Not so actually, as Psionic deities really should not have Clerics. Clerics use magic. Instead, psionic deities should simply be the most powerful representatives of a particular discipline.

I just don't see psionic deities granting people spells or even acquiring power through worship. I see them as being more like powerful psionic entities. I would strip them of the ability to grant spells and give them their entire discipline as psi-like abilities, rather than giving them normal portfolios.

That's what they made the Ardent and Divine Mind classes in Complete Psionics for

 

[dante58701]

Classes I never liked. They don't really fit psionic flavor. Psionics and magic, while not necessarily mutually exclusive, are definitely not the same thing. One is science-fiction based, while the other is pure magical fantasy.

WOTC has made a lot of mistakes when it comes to psionics. Especially with these divine psionics classes. Yet another mistake similar to the whole Incarnum thing. Yet another series f unnecessary classes that most people will never in a million years use.

I have actually banned those classes (with the exception of Lurk, Ectopic Adept, Flayerspawn Psychic, and Erudite, which make sense) in all campaigns I run. All the DMs I know have done the same.

The mutual conclusion...they just don't make any sense at all and they ruin the appeal of psionics by hoisting more magic into the mix.

WOTC was just desperate to make classes that were unique. If they wanted unique they would have been better off using THE MIND'S EYE articles they had online. Those articles were very well done and made a lot more sense then THE DIVINE MIND.

Even in Darksun Psionicists (now referred to as Psions) considered the blending of magic and psionics to be a tainting of psionics. That's why in that setting they really frowned on the whole concept.

As Darksun was the best setting ever done for psionics (indeed the setting psionics were really best thought out for)...I tend to lean toward the direction of the psionic purist.
Psionics are best done right, or simply best not done at all.

 

[jedrious]

Classes I never liked. They don't really fit psionic flavor. Psionics and magic, while not necessarily mutually exclusive, are definitely not the same thing. One is science-fiction based, while the other is pure magical fantasy.

WOTC has made a lot of mistakes when it comes to psionics. Especially with these divine psionics classes. Yet another mistake similar to the whole Incarnum thing. Yet another series f unnecessary classes that most people will never in a million years use.

so we all have to be dictated by your likes and dislikes then

it is much better from a developer's point of view to design knowing that those classes exist as oppossed to making those that do use them to choose between the project you're developing and using official material

 

[dante58701]

Considering WOTC latest splat books, I don't really consider most of their "official material" to be "official material". Just because a designer throws a lot of garbage out there for the public to peruse and waste money on, doesn't mean that material was really worth anything. While WOTC has done some excellent work on some psionic things, they really kinda put psionics on the back burner and shuffled out as much splat material as they could when their coffers began to run low and they started to run out of ideas.

Besides, psionic Portfolios, if they were to exist, should reflect the CORE PSIONIC CLASSES, rather than SECONDARY OR PRESTIGE CLASSES. Neither of which are appropriate in considerations for a Portfolio so comprehensive as PSIONICS.