D&D 5E New legends and lore.....multiclassing sneak peak

[Warbringer]

Mostly GenCon, but nice multiclassing snap shot...

A Little Bit on D&D Next

After the last playtest packet, we're almost done with the classes, races, and other core elements of the game. We haven't shown off multiclassing yet, but it will be in the next packet.

For multiclassing, we're adopting a system similar to 3rd Edition's. Some of this will be old news to longtime readers, but I'm going to recap what we've mentioned before and then add in a few elements that are new.

In order to multiclass, you simply take a level in a new character class when you gain a level.

The math for attack bonuses, saving throws, and so on scales based on your overall character level, so you don't have to worry about accidentally breaking your character.

Multiclassing with spellcasting classes is somewhat similar. Your overall levels in classes that cast spells determines how many spells you can cast. Your levels in those individual classes determine which spells you can prepare. For instance, a 3rd-level mage/3rd-level cleric casts spells per day as a 6th-level character, but can choose to prepare spells available to a 3rd-level wizard or to a 3rd-level cleric. Luckily, our scaling spells ensure that you can still get the most bang for your spells.

What if you combine a fighter and a mage, or a caster class with one that isn't a caster? If you want to dive deeply into such a combination, we're designing a set of subclasses that cater directly to spellcasting. The eldritch knight is a fighter subclass that augments a fighter/mage combination. The warden subclass gives a ranger/druid the flavor and forms of that character class.

Our approach to low-level characters removes the abuses you can achieve by dipping into several classes by spreading out features over the first few levels.

For things such as weapon and armor proficiencies, we have multiclassing-specific rules to ensure that you gain some new proficiencies, but not all of them. You can't dip into fighter to gain all weapons and armor.

https://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20130812

 

[MerricB]

Spellcasting is interesting - you might be able to cast 3rd level spells, but not know any, but you can still cast lower level spells in that slot for enhanced effect. Thinking about it, I like it a lot.

The fighter/mage combo still seems somewhat clunky, but I guess we'll see what it's like when they release it.

 

[Warbringer]

[MENTION=9342]merric[/MENTION]. Yeah the spell caster multiclassing seems pretty elegant and solves 3e issues. However, Fighter/Mage seems that they're saying choose a subclasses, themI guess you can multi-class into this "glue" class?

 

[1of3]

So, speculation on this board was leaning in the right direction.

And we know why the Warden was removed from the playtest. I wonder about other Paladin Oaths then.

 

[Li Shenron]

I don't have anything against these ways of implementing multiclassing...

Then of course it remains to be seen whether the results are balanced enough. I am not in general even particularly worried about balance, but certainly if there is one combo or subclass that ends up being straight and clearly better than other to the point that a lot of people will choose that, then I'm not going to like it... I am especially worried about Eldritch Knight because being a Fighter AND a Mage at the same time is always very attractive.

 

[DogBackward]

What it sounds like is that you could play a normal multiclass of Fighter 3/Mage 3 if you wanted to: you'd have the third level abilities of a third level Fighter, and you'd have the spell slots per day and spells prepared of a third level Mage. If, however, you choose to play a Fighter (Spellblade) 3/Mage 3, then instead of getting Superiority Dice or increased criticals or the things other subclasses give you, you'd get an ability that let you treat your Fighter levels as casting class levels for the purposes of multiclassing. So you'd still only have the spells prepared of a third level Mage (just like in the Mage/Cleric multiclass), but you'd have the spell slots per day of a 6th level caster (again, just like in the Mage/Cleric multiclass).

 

[Li Shenron]

That's also how I understand it.

Basicall your level in each class determines which spells (and spell levels) you know and how many you prepare every day.

Your total level in all your spellcasting classes determines the number of daily slots. However there are two oddities with this:

- first of all, different classes have different number of slots... which progression do you use, the best one? or will they change it so that clerics, druids, mages have the same number of slots at every level? how about lesser casters such as paladins, rangers, bards?

- second, if each class individually determines how many spells you prepare, this is actually the same for all classes i.e. 1+level, so for someone with 2 spellcasting classes it will end up being 2+level, except that presumably these don't merge but you prepare separately 1+level_in_first_class and 1+level_in_second_class from the 2 class lists

This is a bit odd mathematically... it would seem so much easier to prepare a number of spells based on your total level (since it's only anyway a difference of 1). Instead, with daily slots making the combination is tricky... but clearly this approach is chosen so that you still get higher level slots, even tho you have to fill them with augmented lower level spells.

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Example: let's say I wanna play Gandalf and I choose half Mage / half Paladin. Let's see what happens at 6th level.

I prepare 4 Mage spells (as a Mage 3) and 2 Paladin spells (as a Paladin 3) every day, and I know up to 2nd level Mage spells and 1st level Paladin spells.

If I were a Mage 6, I would have 4 first level slots + 3 second level slots + 3 third level slots.

If I were a Paladin 6, I would have 3 first level slots + 1 second level slot.

How many slots do I have as a Mage 3 / Paladin 3?

 

[1of3]

- second, if each class individually determines how many spells you prepare, this is actually the same for all classes i.e. 1+level [...]

That has been changed. For Paladins and Rangers it's now 1+ Level/2. Also several classes have additional spells available based on their subclass (Clerics, Rangers, Druids). So, "Determine your available spells based on your classes" might actually be easier.


They probably require several overall progressions for mixing different attack bonuses and spell allotments.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

The way spellcasting will work is somewhat as I predicted a while back. There's a fixed chart that you ascend to determine how many spells you can cast per day. I thought, however, that you would add up your individual class levels for preparation - a Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 would prepare 3 spells from each class and choose which ones to cast with which slots. Mike wrote that you'll prepare as X or Y.. which means you only get 3 arcane or 3 divine spells to choose from for the day? That's not very Cleric/Wizard in my mind.

They will also need to modify the acquisition of spells for Paladins/Rangers, so that their levels count as half for the purposes of determining where you are on the spellcasting chart.

As for Fighter levels not contributing unless you take a specific subclass - UGH. If you're a Wizard, we now know that your attack bonus will scale with every other class, up to +6, but you can only use that with weapons that you have proficiency for. So if you spend a feat, you'll be greatsword-wielding with the best of them. Now if you're a Fighter, your levels count for nothing in the grand spellcasting scheme, and the feats you can take don't modify that. I guess this is a result of breaking down martial abilities into little packets (a weapon here, an armour there) and leaving spellcasting as one great big lump. If you could acquire proficiency in a spell school, or a domain list, then Fighter levels could fairly count for at least half on the spellcasting chart and you would need to spend a feat to gain proficiency in a small section of spellcasting.

 

[Li Shenron]

That has been changed. For Paladins and Rangers it's now 1+ Level/2. Also several classes have additional spells available based on their subclass (Clerics, Rangers, Druids). So, "Determine your available spells based on your classes" might actually be easier.


They probably require several overall progressions for mixing different attack bonuses and spell allotments.

Yes, I factored in that half level in the Gandalf example calculatations above Anyway this is quite ok IMO, it's not a big difference anyway.

OTOH the slots calculation/combination is a potential headache ATM...

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About attack bonuses, it would be so much simpler if all classes just had the same progression, in which case a multiclass PC would simply have the attack bonus according to the total level.

This idea has been talked about before. Same progression doesn't mean everyone is equally good at fighting, since each class has different proficiencies (you don't get the attack bonus on weapons you're not proficient with) and its own combat abilities/boosts that make overall a lot of difference.

As an example, a Mage with same attack bonus as a Fighter is not nearly as good as him in combat. It doesn't really matter if the Mage get the same attack bonus because the Mage is always better off using spells, and the Fighter has so many combat additions that even with the same attack bonus the Mage always pales in comparison when swinging a weapon.

Furthermore, bounded accuracy means that even with each class having its own unique attack bonus progression, the different wouldn't be large. So why have a difference at all?