New Neverwinter Nights Game Probably On Its Way

[Monkey Boy]

Personally, I am not sure if it will be a new NWN Game or not.

Having just gotten back from GenCon 2010 -which was awesome! - it feels like Dark Sun is the HUGE NEW THING, with not only a massive product line, but a comic book and novel series coming out to support it.

Darksun won't happen. They have learnt their lesson after the last batch of 3e Eberron branded games stumbled. Neverwinter is an established brand they can bank on. The question is whether it'll be an MMO or not? I suspect not, given the legal wrangling over DDO.

 

[erf_beto]

DDO is a fine game. I'd rather not see two DnD MMOs compete with each other.

So, yeah, I do hope we see a turn based solo game, with the option to create your own adventures and GM them with your friends. And please, like I said earlier, let's have a quick play option. O

 

[JohnRTroy]

Just to correct people, all of Neverwinter Nights 2 was Obsidian, not just MoTB.

Anyway, I don't see anything wrong with standard tropes. It's only the jaded and cynical gamers who have played numerous games who really complain about that stuff. This is always somebody's first game, and the Hero's Journey is pretty much the best type of game structure suited for it.

 

[AllisterH]

*sigh*

If it was ANYONE other than Atari publishing it...I'd have hope.

But as others have mentioned in this thread...its ATARI...

ugh.

 

[MrMyth]

NWN2 is, agreed, not a good game or a good story - but how can it be when it's being forced into yet another terrible stock cliche fantasy story? Mask of the Betrayer, on the other hand, is flat out better then anything Bioware has made. It's easily one of the best games made in recent times. It's Planescape: Torment levels of good.

I don't really keep track of who made what game, but my experience doesn't quite match this.

NWN2 is an ok story, with some especially weak plot justifications for the railroading, and an absolutely terrible ending. Mask of the Betrayer is a much stronger story, but I still didn't feel it had the emotional depth that NWN1 (and Hordes of the Underdark) had. Some good plot elements, but not quite on the level of Planescape: Torment.

Edit: Though, in retrospect, my feelings on MotB may have been tainted by the transition from NWN2, where I liked the story most of the way, and rather wanted to continue it rather than having pretty much all my former connections cut away in a new game.

 

[Remus Lupin]

See this chart:

Ok, I take your point, although by leaving out PS:T and MotB, it sort of stacks the deck a bit. However, I do see the comparisons.

However, now that I'm looking at this, I realize that it doesn't matter that much to me, since the games are so much fun, and part of the fun is seeing how Bioware plays with and modifies the cliche's from game to game. And, honestly, I can't think of many games that are more fun to play, cliches or not.

 

[deganawida]

Ok, I take your point, although by leaving out PS:T and MotB, it sort of stacks the deck a bit. However, I do see the comparisons.

However, now that I'm looking at this, I realize that it doesn't matter that much to me, since the games are so much fun, and part of the fun is seeing how Bioware plays with and modifies the cliche's from game to game. And, honestly, I can't think of many games that are more fun to play, cliches or not.

PS:T was made by Black Isle Studios, while MotB was made by Obsidian Entertainment. Thus, neither would appear on the Bioware cliche chart.

Regarding a new NWN, though I had a feeling this would happen, I sincerely hope that it doesn't. If it must be set in FR, I would prefer a new Baldur's Gate (minus Bhaalspawn). Given that BG is a major city in the new FR, it would seem appropriate.

Still, I would rather any game be set in PoLand, to capitalize on the stuff 4e has introduced rather than on more drow rangers, and to keep video game stuff out of published settings.

 

[WizarDru]

Darksun won't happen. They have learnt their lesson after the last batch of 3e Eberron branded games stumbled.

DDO is a 3e Eberron branded game. After they course corrected, it went from 8th place to 3rd place for MMOs (I assume that number refers to domestic US games).

Ok, I take your point, although by leaving out PS:T and MotB, it sort of stacks the deck a bit. However, I do see the comparisons.

It also skews the data to suit it's agenda. The Citadel is a major location in Mass Effect, but it's not listed so that you can match up the four-location list. Cerberus hardly dogs your every move there, either, having just four missions in ME1, most of them linked to one character. Hardly the stuff of having your every effort thwarted. And saying the bad guys (the Sith or the Geth or whomever) try to stop you is a pretty broad qualifier. It counts Jade Empire's 'travel across the land' as a positive for 'visiting four locations' and omits Dantooine and Taris in KotoR to make it fit.

I mean, there are definitely tropes in play...but they're genre tropes and things done to facilitate a good game. And some of them are virtual requirements to such games. I'd be more curious to see a chart showing some good games that DON'T follow many of these tropes. As mentioned above, a lot of games fail in the endeavour. ToEE was the best implementation of 3E rules ever, but it was buggy as hell and really not that great a game, overall (though it became playable after the Circle of Eight fan effort created a patch to fix the game's many, many bugs). Arcanum had it's heart in the right place, but it's interface was clunky and unintuitive, it too was buggy and the graphics were dated even then.

As for Obsidian, I've never played Mask of the Betrayer, so I can't comment on it. But NWN2's camera and the first hour of play were uninspiring enough that we never really got into it, even though we played NWN 1 for a long time with all the community content (which was much better than the original campaign, though the expansions were fantastic). If Obsidian wants a reputation as a studio that doesn't just take sloppy seconds and whatever their publisher needs to farm out when the 'real' developers leave, they should stop taking projects like Dungeon Siege 3 or Fallout: New Vegas. So far, the only truly unique IP they've had was Alpha Protocol, widely regarded as a disappointment both critically and in sales.

 

[Steel_Wind]

My expectation is that this is a new NWN3 game. Who the develeoper will be is unknown. BioWare is now part of EA and will not deal with Atari in any fashion -- let alone get involved in a game where they do not own or control the IP. That ship has sailed.

As for Obsidian, given the poor performance of Alpha Protocol and the cancellation by Sega of their Aliens/Marines RPG last year, I would not be surprised if Obsidian Entertainment is involved again.

Frankly, I'm somewhat surprised to see a PC CRPG for D&D again. There are exceedingly few PC only titles these days. The fact that there were no electronic exhibitors at Gencon 2010 is not an accident folks. That ship has also for the most part, regrettably, sailed. The money is just not there anymore when compared to the far more profitable platform that 360 and PS3 console games provide. (MMOs excepted).

As for the setting... look: the cost of any setting from the developer's viewpoint is exactly the same on a royalty basis. Given that, a developer will choose the one with the most traction with the average computer game buyer. And that setting is most assuredly the Forgotten Realms, leveraging either the Neverwinter or Baldur's Gate brand names. In this case, the Neverwinter brand seems to be the next batter up given the recent IP domain name reservations.

The rumor of a NWN Forgotten Realms MMO has been around for quite a while. It would not surprise me to learn that this was a MMO game. DDO has been a commercial and economic failure for WotC, Atari and -- for the most part -- Turbine. (There is no debate about this point. You might like the game, but I'm counting $$, not smiles and good feelings.)

Were I Feargus and Co at Obsidian -- my first choice would be to return "Neverwinter Nights" to its original "MMO roots" [insert pointless and miguided nostalgia over AOL's Gold Box engine NWN game here]. Because the copy protection for a MMO is guaranteed they are for more profitable if you succeed. They also cost a helluva lot of money to develop properly, too.

As for the mod tools and any DM client for NWN 3... that ship has also, regrettably, sailed. The tile based game that was NWN1 encouraged modding in a manner that was an odd convergence of widespread gaming PCs, the internet, and technical art requirements that were within the capability of enthusiasts.

By the time NWN2 was released, the technological curve had progressed to the point where all but the most hardcore of enthusiasts had been effectively shut out of participation. The days of the solo modder ended. And I assure you, even a team approach is exceptionally difficult to do.

And yes, for those of you who recorgnize the handle, I was the leader of DLA team that BioWare hired to create the third expansion for NWN1, Wyvern Crown of Cormyr.

So I do lay claim to extensive knowledge in this area. The plain fact is that the 3d art tools now involved in the creation of a modern CRPG are beyond the skillset of all but a dozen or two members of the game community. The difficulty in producing much of anything for use with Dragon Age's toolset and engine is clear evidence that a toolset designed for community use is just no longer worth it, imo. (And for the record, BioWare paid a lot of money to fly ex-members of DLA and other NWN1 community members to Edmonton for training on the Dragon Age toolset, too. They really did try to make it happen for Dragon Age.)

Sad, but there it is.

 

[WizarDru]

And some of them are virtual requirements to such games. I'd be more curious to see a chart showing some good games that DON'T follow many of these tropes.

To Wit: the opening of Arcanum from wikipedia "Arcanum begins with a cut scene of the IFS Zephyr, a luxury zeppelin, on her maiden voyage from Caladon to Tarant. Two monoplanes, piloted by Half-Ogre bandits, close in on the craft and commence attack runs, succeeding in shooting it down. A passenger aboard the Zephyr, an old gnome, now in his death throes under charred debris, tells the player to bring a silver ring to "the boy", and promptly dies. Being the only survivor of the crash, the main character is proclaimed as "The Living One", a holy reincarnate, by the only witness to the crash, Virgil. The story follows the player's path as he searches for the origin of the ring he has to deliver. Over the course of the game, the player uncovers more about the history of the continent, the motivation of the assassins out there to kill him and the identity of the one threatening to end all life on the land."

So, we have humble beginnings shattered by an attack leading to you being named a member of an elite order and being placed on a quest while an evil organization hinders him, just from that summary.

Here's Mask of the Betrayer's opening act: "In Act I, the story continues from the defeat of the King of Shadows. The player wakes up, alone, in a cave in Rashemen,[9] and soon meets Safiya, a Red Wizard of Thay.[3] The player arrives at the town of Mulsantir after it has been attacked by several Red Wizards and during which Safiya's mother Nefris was killed. After finding a portal leading to Shadow Mulsantir in the Plane of Shadow which contains a shadow reflection of the Prime Material Plane, the player enters it and helps Safiya to defeat the Red Wizards. Upon returning to the Prime Material Plane, the player's party confronts the spirit god Okku and defeats his army, which leads to the player becoming a spirit eater,[8] a cursed being that hungers for and devours feys and elementals."

Again, a catastrohpic attack a character defies an evil organization who hunts him and he joins an elite force travelling with companions. Looks like there are dream sequences, too.


I would expect most games in the genre use any number of these tropes. And I'm OK with that, since in general the difference between an Obisidian and a Bioware is execution, which I feel the former does OK with and the later is stunningly successful in performing.