New/Revised Prestige Classes

[Phantom Llama]

Maybe I'd like to think there was more to being a barbarian than simply getting angry.

There is. That's what fast movement, improved toughness, DR, feat selection and Prestige Classes are for.

Base classes have to be basic, because it's too much work to produce a base class for every single concept someone could possibly want to play. I think the reason why Summon Ancestor Spirits is so objectionable is that it doesn't just foist a potentially schtick-breaking supernatural ability on everyone who wants to play a rage-driven warrior, it also effectively locks them into a specific religious position, since the ability wouldn't make sense for a barbarian who didn't venerate or otherwise care about his ancestors.

Or are you suggesting that classes should become predictable and boring to better 'sell' Prestige Classes.

Don't be ridiculous. This sort of thing - abilities that would be cool but wouldn't sit well in the base class - is one of the things PrCs are for.

It would also work as an alternate class ability. Either way, it's not something that should be foisted on every person who wants to play a barbarian.

I'm curious to hear what sort of abilities you think Barbarians should have?

Most of what you have is fine. The roar is odd, but acceptable.

Take that up with WotC.

It was a bad idea when they did it and it was a bad idea when you retained it.

I see both as generic Barbarian abilities, so I don't think them out of place.

Bloodstrike is the Barbarian putting so much into blows that hes hurting himself.

Apophenia is rage fuelling speed rather than strength.

Bloodstrike I'll grant you. Apophenia is... odd. It's a major complete shift of focus of the rage ability. I hardly see how it's 'generic'.

 

[WarDragon]

I agree with everything Phantom Llama said. Aphopenia should be a choice, given at first level. I don't want every barbarian taking Improved Finesse as their first Epic feat.

Oh, and the Iconic shouldn't be something with racial HD or LA.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Thanks for the support Pssthpok!

Hey Phantom Llama dude!

There is. That's what fast movement, improved toughness, DR, feat selection and Prestige Classes are for.

- Fast Movement...hardly a major selling point, is it?
- Improved Toughness...I just added that.
- Damage Reduction...isn't proactive, you don't 'roleplay' damage reduction.
- Feat Selection...I don't even think there are any barbarian specific feats in the PHB.
- Prestige Classes...You shouldn't have to rely on Prestige Classes, the core Classes should be able to sell themselves and be interesting enough to warrant being chosen - otherwise they are a waste of space.

Rage is the only proactive element to the barbarian class. I added Roar and Summon Ancestral spirits which are both proactive and tactical. Bloodstrike is also tactical.

Base classes have to be basic,

Thats like saying they have to be boring. It doesn't make any sense. Why play a boring class when you could play an exciting class!?

because it's too much work to produce a base class for every single concept someone could possibly want to play.

No ones trying to do that. But what I am trying to do, is give people enough interesting facets to the core classes that they don't get bored with it and feel they NEED to segue into a Prestige Class. They still can of course, but if the barbarian keeps getting interesting abilities they might decide to keep playing one.

I think the reason why Summon Ancestor Spirits is so objectionable is that it doesn't just foist a potentially schtick-breaking supernatural ability on everyone who wants to play a rage-driven warrior, it also effectively locks them into a specific religious position, since the ability wouldn't make sense for a barbarian who didn't venerate or otherwise care about his ancestors.

I'm wracking my brains trying to think of a barbarian culture that didn't venerate their ancestors: the Celts did, the Norse did, the Native Americans did...?

Don't be ridiculous. This sort of thing - abilities that would be cool but wouldn't sit well in the base class - is one of the things PrCs are for.

It would also work as an alternate class ability. Either way, it's not something that should be foisted on every person who wants to play a barbarian.

I don't think its so far fetched that its out of place. I guess we can just disagree on whether the core classes should be 'kewl' or not.

Most of what you have is fine. The roar is odd, but acceptable.

"ROOOOOAAAAAARRRRRR!!!!"

It was a bad idea when they did it and it was a bad idea when you retained it.

So you think a 1st-level Barbarian should be able to read and write?

Bloodstrike I'll grant you.

Okay.

Apophenia is... odd. It's a major complete shift of focus of the rage ability. I hardly see how it's 'generic'.

I like the idea that a barbarian could channel their rage into new abilities. However, I am starting to agree with you and WarDragon that maybe it doesn't gel well with the barbarian core concept, working better as a sort of Barbarian-style-Shadowdancer-type Prestige Class.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

...
- Prestige Classes...You shouldn't have to rely on Prestige Classes, the core Classes should be able to sell themselves and be interesting enough to warrant being chosen - otherwise they are a waste of space...

I completely agree on this point. 3E/3.5 lost touch with what the original concept of a prestige class was: Giving up general abilities and focusing on a more narrow set of abilities. The problem with 3E/3.5 is that almost none of the PRCs printed in the last 5 years or so follow that ideal. They let you focus a specific area, while still allowing you to be general. In essence, there is no downside to many classes. Why play just a barbarian when a Frenzied Berserker is a 1 man army? Why be a cleric when Radiant servant of Pelor does everything cleric does and tons more? A gag I heard on someone's D&D site: "The last 10 levels of Rogue are called 'Assassin'."
Making base classes that are competitive & more interesting, like U_K's revised barbarian idea is a great idea. Granted, not all of the classes need revising (Druid, Cleric, Wizard - Spellcasting is enough) but others (Sorcerer) sorely need it. There is a reason there has only ever been 1 serious sorcerer played in my games in the last 5 years. (and he died. Death via Cthulhu) Tons of Barbarians, at least 1 per game. Scores of Wizards. 1 single sorcerer. Coolest character in the party, but easily the weakest, even with numerous concessions made in his favor.

 

[Phantom Llama]

- Prestige Classes...You shouldn't have to rely on Prestige Classes, the core Classes should be able to sell themselves and be interesting enough to warrant being chosen - otherwise they are a waste of space.

You don't have to rely on prestige classes. Barbarian-sans-SAS is a perfectly viable and fun character concept, with many abilities all strongly tied into a theme. And if someone thinks it would be totally awesome to be able to summon the spirits of his ancestors to aid him, he can take the Valhallan Herald prestige class. A modular system that lets a wide variety of concepts be expressed, rather than base classes that specify the flavour of the character right down to their freaking religion.

Rage is the only proactive element to the barbarian class. I added Roar and Summon Ancestral spirits which are both proactive and tactical. Bloodstrike is also tactical.

So you want another 'offensive' class ability. I'll start thinking, but just because you don't have a better idea doesn't make SAS a good idea.

Thats like saying they have to be boring. It doesn't make any sense. Why play a boring class when you could play an exciting class!?

Nonsense. There's nothing boring about the Barbarian. It has a strong suite of thematic abilities that improve as it levels, and some nice capstones to look forward to.

No ones trying to do that. But what I am trying to do, is give people enough interesting facets to the core classes that they don't get bored with it and feel they NEED to segue into a Prestige Class. They still can of course, but if the barbarian keeps getting interesting abilities they might decide to keep playing one.

Folding abilities that should be in prestige classes (due to being a significant enough departure from the base concept that they will jar with a large number of interpretations of the class) into the class itself is a bad way of making a class 'more interesting'.

Your revised Barbarian demands prestige classing out just as much as the RAW Barbarian, since anyone playing one of the huge variety of barbarian concepts that don't include SAS will need to multiclass out before 10th level.

I'm wracking my brains trying to think of a barbarian culture that didn't venerate their ancestors: the Celts did, the Norse did, the Native Americans did...?

I can think of four right now:

• The Iogai people of the Great Solar Steppe, who worship the circle of life - upon death, the soul is reincarnated into another living being, be it a man or a bird or a tree or a star in the sky.
• Bob 'Temper' Mackey, premier barroom brawler of the Owlbear and Breakdancer pub, known across the district for his size, toughness, terrifying demeanour and spectacular temper.
• The feared Howling Dragoon division of the Dantalian Army, selected from the strongest, most promising and most ill-tempered recruits.
• Ichigo McGoku the shounen anime protagonist, who fights by taking a lot of punishment then overcoming his opponent by getting really, really mad.

This is a 'Fantasy' roleplaying game, not a 'Historical Cultures With Magic Bolted On' roleplaying game.

I don't think its so far fetched that its out of place. I guess we can just disagree on whether the core classes should be 'kewl' or not.

The barbarian class is plenty cool by itself (for people who like that sort of thing) without adding another ability that instantly slices off the greater part of the class' breadth.

So you think a 1st-level Barbarian should be able to read and write?

No less than a mugger, street urchin or man-at-arms.

I like the idea that a barbarian could channel their rage into new abilities. However, I am starting to agree with you and WarDragon that maybe it doesn't gel well with the barbarian core concept, working better as a sort of Barbarian-style-Shadowdancer-type Prestige Class.

So why is this comparatively minor ability worth a prestige class but the ability to resurrect the dead totally a key part of the raging warrior archetype?

 

[paradox42]

- Prestige Classes...You shouldn't have to rely on Prestige Classes, the core Classes should be able to sell themselves and be interesting enough to warrant being chosen - otherwise they are a waste of space.

Without going into any judgment on the class discussion that sparked this statement, I must break in here and vehemently disagree with you here UK. Even if this is the Internet, you should remember that your opinion is not fact! Prestige Classes have many purposes, and Phantom Llama's is a perfectly valid one for many people. Understand (and never forget) that your philosophy is not the One Correct Way to do things.

I'll also point out that core classes need not be anything besides generic to make a fun game- d20 Modern has the most generic base classes imaginable, and it's a very well-designed and fun game (its silly opinions on the effects of high-damage weapons like nukes notwithstanding). Ultimately, it's all in how you work with the tools given to you as a player or gamemaster.

 

[Phantom Llama]

No less than a mugger, street urchin or man-at-arms.

Further to this: I actually like the idea of having illiteracy available as a mechanical option. But I think it should be available to everyone (drop reading and writing to get two extra skill points at first level) rather than a class feature. Of course characters like Wizards will have some explaining to do.

I'd also like to apologise for coming off a bit terse in the above post.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

The only thing odd about barbarian illiteracy is that since it comes with taking your first level in barbarian, it is different than most every class feature. Heck, unless you really want to rage at 1st level (a huge boon if used intelligently) its better to go one level in Fighter first. But thats from a Core point of view. (And my powergaming instincts)

Odd thing about D&D demographics - Only the barbarian is illiterate. Even a simple peasant can read and write. I can understand literacy being standard for spellcasters (maybe not druids) and aristocrats/experts, but commoners? My knowledge of the medieval history is hardly encyclopedic, but weren't only a few people back in the middle ages able to read?

Also the "trade literacy for 2 skill points at first level" is a nice idea.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Ltheb mate!

I completely agree on this point. 3E/3.5 lost touch with what the original concept of a prestige class was: Giving up general abilities and focusing on a more narrow set of abilities. The problem with 3E/3.5 is that almost none of the PRCs printed in the last 5 years or so follow that ideal. They let you focus a specific area, while still allowing you to be general. In essence, there is no downside to many classes. Why play just a barbarian when a Frenzied Berserker is a 1 man army? Why be a cleric when Radiant servant of Pelor does everything cleric does and tons more?

Exactly. I think part of this is to 'sell' Prestige Classes, but too often its at the expense of core classes and thats even before we talk about the epic progressions of the core classes.

Something like the Tome of Battle (and I'm judging by reputation) did well with power gamers because the new classes make the Fighter look like a wimp.

Then theres the balance issue to contend with, most of these Prestige Classes seem to think if I add a few prereqs I can get away with something thats 50% more powerful.

Its one-upmanship rather than innovation (if thats not too strong a word?) that seem to inspire most Prestige Classes.

A gag I heard on someone's D&D site: "The last 10 levels of Rogue are called 'Assassin'."

Making base classes that are competitive & more interesting, like U_K's revised barbarian idea is a great idea. Granted, not all of the classes need revising (Druid, Cleric, Wizard - Spellcasting is enough)

Cleric and Druid I would drop to d6 Hit Dice.

but others (Sorcerer) sorely need it. There is a reason there has only ever been 1 serious sorcerer played in my games in the last 5 years. (and he died. Death via Cthulhu) Tons of Barbarians, at least 1 per game. Scores of Wizards. 1 single sorcerer. Coolest character in the party, but easily the weakest, even with numerous concessions made in his favor.

Interesting, I'll look into Revising the Sorcerer eventually, but it'll probably be the last to get done.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Phantom Llama mate!

You don't have to rely on prestige classes.

Only if you want a fun, interesting class which is powerful enough to 'keep up with the jones'es'.

Barbarian-sans-SAS is a perfectly viable and fun character concept, with many abilities all strongly tied into a theme.

I disagree, its tactically one-dimensional (Rage), underpowered against the cleric or wizard and the epic progression is boring.

And if someone thinks it would be totally awesome to be able to summon the spirits of his ancestors to aid him, he can take the Valhallan Herald prestige class.

Or just stick with Barbarian.

A modular system that lets a wide variety of concepts be expressed, rather than base classes that specify the flavour of the character right down to their freaking religion.

I fail to see how 'summon ancestral spirits' determines your religion?

So you want another 'offensive' class ability. I'll start thinking, but just because you don't have a better idea doesn't make SAS a good idea.

I don't think its necessarily about offense as it is about proactive - that is, something you activate and it changes your tactics.

Nonsense. There's nothing boring about the Barbarian. It has a strong suite of thematic abilities that improve as it levels, and some nice capstones to look forward to.

I don't fully agree with you - see above for my reasons.

Folding abilities that should be in prestige classes (due to being a significant enough departure from the base concept that they will jar with a large number of interpretations of the class) into the class itself is a bad way of making a class 'more interesting'.

I already listed my reasons for including the Summon Ancestral Spirits ability.

Your revised Barbarian demands prestige classing out just as much as the RAW Barbarian, since anyone playing one of the huge variety of barbarian concepts that don't include SAS will need to multiclass out before 10th level.

Then no harm done - since they'd all be Prestige Classing anyways.

I can think of four right now:

• The Iogai people of the Great Solar Steppe, who worship the circle of life - upon death, the soul is reincarnated into another living being, be it a man or a bird or a tree or a star in the sky.
• Bob 'Temper' Mackey, premier barroom brawler of the Owlbear and Breakdancer pub, known across the district for his size, toughness, terrifying demeanour and spectacular temper.
• The feared Howling Dragoon division of the Dantalian Army, selected from the strongest, most promising and most ill-tempered recruits.
• Ichigo McGoku the shounen anime protagonist, who fights by taking a lot of punishment then overcoming his opponent by getting really, really mad.

This is a 'Fantasy' roleplaying game, not a 'Historical Cultures With Magic Bolted On' roleplaying game.

The first sounds like a Druid or Ranger, the second and third sound like Fighters and the last sounds like a Monk.

The barbarian class is plenty cool by itself (for people who like that sort of thing) without adding another ability that instantly slices off the greater part of the class' breadth.

I thought I was adding rather than taking things away.

No less than a mugger, street urchin or man-at-arms.

I don't think you can make the same generalism about the above's education (I presume you're implying Rogue and Fighter) as you can the Barbarian.

So why is this comparatively minor ability worth a prestige class but the ability to resurrect the dead totally a key part of the raging warrior archetype?

They are not resurrecting anything, simply summoning the dead.