New/Revised Prestige Classes

[Pssthpok]

I like how each of UK's class revisions seem to serve as soapboxes for other people who want to go and prove something 'wrong' about 'optional' material presented with no intention of replacing the standing mechanics.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy paradox42 mate!

Was ENWorld down the past 18 hours or so? I haven't been able to connect...

Without going into any judgment on the class discussion that sparked this statement, I must break in here and vehemently disagree with you here UK.

Disagreement is allowed, I always like to think we are all friends here.

But I think you and a few of the others have a real bee in your bonnet's over what is essentially nothing.

Even if this is the Internet, you should remember that your opinion is not fact!

Well theres the fact that it IS my opinion.

Theres another fact that they are MY revised classes.

Unless you are saying I can't actually post stuff on my own website now without taking a vote on it!?

Even though I always try to have sound reasoning for my ideas and I'm happy to discuss them, I technically don't have to answer to anyone about what I put on the website. I enjoy creating (and even revising) stuff but I don't have to do it to the specifications of any given individual other than myself. I don't have to placate you or Phantom Llama on Summon Ancestral Spirits. Okay, I get it, you don't think that ability fits well with a core barbarian. Thats fair enough, but I do like it, and no argument has to date swayed me on that (unlike Apophenia which I may indeed change).

Prestige Classes have many purposes, and Phantom Llama's is a perfectly valid one for many people.

Absolutely.

Understand (and never forget) that your philosophy is not the One Correct Way to do things.

Anyone who doesn't operate under their own philosophy and reasoning is an automaton.

I'll also point out that core classes need not be anything besides generic to make a fun game - d20 Modern has the most generic base classes imaginable, and it's a very well-designed and fun game (its silly opinions on the effects of high-damage weapons like nukes notwithstanding). Ultimately, it's all in how you work with the tools given to you as a player or gamemaster.

Again, totally agree.

But the bottom line is some of you guys are making a drama out of nothing.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Further to this: I actually like the idea of having illiteracy available as a mechanical option. But I think it should be available to everyone (drop reading and writing to get two extra skill points at first level) rather than a class feature. Of course characters like Wizards will have some explaining to do..

I don't see any reason why you couldn't adopt it as a character trait for an individual - although I don't see two skill points as a big 'whoop-de-doo'. Its half a feat if even that! Still, it could be an interesting trait to roleplay.

I'd also like to apologise for coming off a bit terse in the above post.

Everybody gets a bit cranky now and then, no harm done.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Pssthpok dude!

I like how each of UK's class revisions seem to serve as soapboxes for other people who want to go and prove something 'wrong' about 'optional' material presented with no intention of replacing the standing mechanics.

It has been an amusing aside - you would think I was putting a gun to some people's heads.

But I suppose its a backhanded compliment that people can get so passionate about these things...at least thats what I tell myself.

 

[Xzoltar]

Hi Upper Krust

I didnt like the Fighter variant the first time (now with the revision, I like it but not sure yet if it would replace the standard fighter in my games)

As for the Barbarian variant. I really like it, better progression for Damage Reduction and more Hit Points via Improved Toughness. However, I dont really like the Roar ability, even if they made sense are we have seen that in lot of rpg (like WoW). It could be feat instead that require rage. So I remove that ability and give a bonus feat every 5 levels.

Ancestral Spirits it also make lot of sense and in lot of culture we heard of warrior speaking or getting help form their ancestors, however it really dosent seem to fit with the other Barbarian powers. So I will still keep that away and require either a feat, template, spell or prestige class to access to theses spirits.

And can you clarify, if I understand SAP at level 40 (like in your example) a barbarian can summon 1d4+1 lvl 20 (Average 285 hp) Barbarians or 10d4+10 lvl 10 Barbarians (Average 140 hp) that remain for 40 rounds. Every hour ? That's every encounter. Sure its Epic level play, but 50 Barbarians lvl 10 helping you is still a lot. They can all greater rage and fight or help you via Aid another option. Or its enough to conquer most town and lesser settle.

And can you add a clause in SAS that make the Barbarian you call cannot use their call ability. Just like with the summon ability of Demon/Devil/Angel. I know you said to use the Barbarian NPC from DMG, but it dosent make sense since we are using your variant.

I dont understand why Hulsk gain size increase while raging, I dont see that reflect in is rage ability, magic items or feats, can you clarify if its from Virtual Size increase ?, thanks.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Upper Krust

Hey there Xzoltar mate!

I didnt like the Fighter variant the first time (now with the revision, I like it but not sure yet if it would replace the standard fighter in my games).

Well I think, coupled with metamartial maneouvres that the revised Fighter stops the Fighter class from taking a back seat at epic-level games to Clerics and Wizards.

As for the Barbarian variant. I really like it, better progression for Damage Reduction and more Hit Points via Improved Toughness.

Glad you like it.

However, I dont really like the Roar ability, even if they made sense are we have seen that in lot of rpg (like WoW). It could be feat instead that require rage.

I'm not familiar with World of Warcraft to any great degree, so I certainly wasn't copying the ability from such a source.

So I remove that ability and give a bonus feat every 5 levels.

Fair enough.

Ancestral Spirits it also make lot of sense and in lot of culture we heard of warrior speaking or getting help form their ancestors,

however it really dosent seem to fit with the other Barbarian powers. So I will still keep that away and require either a feat, template, spell or prestige class to access to theses spirits.

And can you clarify, if I understand SAP at level 40 (like in your example) a barbarian can summon 1d4+1 lvl 20 (Average 285 hp) Barbarians or 10d4+10 lvl 10 Barbarians (Average 140 hp) that remain for 40 rounds. Every hour ? That's every encounter. Sure its Epic level play, but 50 Barbarians lvl 10 helping you is still a lot. They can all greater rage and fight or help you via Aid another option. Or its enough to conquer most town and lesser settle.

Agreed, I'm going to change that to monthly multiples. Thus at 40th-level you could use it 4/month, but you cannot use it twice at the same time and there would be a minimum delay of 1 hour between uses (end of one summoning and beginning of another) at 40th-level. At 30th it would be 3/month with a delay of one day between uses, at 20th it would be 2/month with a delay of 1 week between uses, etc.

And can you add a clause in SAS that make the Barbarian you call cannot use their call ability. Just like with the summon ability of Demon/Devil/Angel.

Will do.

I know you said to use the Barbarian NPC from DMG, but it dosent make sense since we are using your variant.

Well just use the stats for the NPC barbarians and then apply the changes for my revision. The only thing you have to change is the class features.

I dont understand why Hulsk gain size increase while raging, I dont see that reflect in is rage ability, magic items or feats, can you clarify if its from Virtual Size increase ?, thanks.

Yes, thats my fault sorry. Basically I have been thinking that part of the barbarian's rage will trigger growth - much like Slaine Mac Roth's Warp Spasm from 2000AD comic. I haven't fully decided how much they will grow and I am toying about with Hulsk's size at the moment.

 

[Phantom Llama]

I disagree, its tactically one-dimensional (Rage), underpowered against the cleric or wizard and the epic progression is boring.

Being tactically one-dimensional and weak vs. the spellcasters is a valid concern, but that doesn't make any ability invented to fill the gap automatically a good idea.

Also, you still have Roar, so it's tactically two-dimensional at the least.

I fail to see how 'summon ancestral spirits' determines your religion?

It implies ancestor worship, or at least ancestor-honouring. It fits dodgily with many concepts that would otherwise be well expressed by the barbarian class, as I outlined before.

I don't think its necessarily about offense as it is about proactive - that is, something you activate and it changes your tactics.

They are a good idea (That's fundamentally why the TOB was popular - not because it makes mêlée characters more powerful, but because it makes them more fun).

Here's a possibility: A 'burst of effort' ability, that lets you expend a Rage/day usage to perform an incredible feat beyond your normal abilities, like shrug off a spell or leap a great distance or smash down a wall (or door). Essentially similar to rage, but more focused. It might desire more uses of rage/day though.

The first sounds like a Druid or Ranger, the second and third sound like Fighters and the last sounds like a Monk.

I didn't mention spellcasting anywhere in the first one. Their warriors are renowned for their unstoppable berzerker rages though. The second and third one being fighters means they don't get Rage or Roar, both important things for their concept (Howling dragoons, remember?). The fourth one doesn't fit Monk so well since a Monk is all about calm and self-control, whereas shounenry is about hot blood and BURNING JUSTICE. Barbarian is a much better mechanical fit - except for SAS (which I guess you could actually reflavour to some kind of duplication special move, but this is a fringe example anyway).

I thought I was adding rather than taking things away.

Sometimes adding things takes things away. In this case, it's a very strongly themed ability that takes the class away from a wealth of concepts for which it would otherwise be a good match. It's a very unusual ability that just plain doesn't fit a lot of character concepts - even a lot of traditional barbarian ones that happen not to include overtly supernatural powers.

Putting it into a prestige class means that everyone who wants a more mundane barbarian can have one, and everyone who thinks it's a cool ability that they would want to have (which includes myself, I might add) can have it. Everyone wins.

I don't think you can make the same generalism about the above's education (I presume you're implying Rogue and Fighter) as you can the Barbarian.

You can't make that generalism about the Barbarian either - it's perfectly possible for a barbarian tribe to have a written tradition. But this is a minor point.

They are not resurrecting anything, simply summoning the dead.

They're temporarily resurrecting them - bringing them back to the material plane to fight again. It feels much more esoteric than just getting fast instead of strong.

I like how each of UK's class revisions seem to serve as soapboxes for other people who want to go and prove something 'wrong' about 'optional' material presented with no intention of replacing the standing mechanics.

Indeed, I also like how his revisions are provoking debate and discussion on power levels and design philosophy, which can only lead to stronger design from all parties in the future.


I'm looking forwards to the Paladin revision - I've never been happy with the PHB version.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Phantom Llama mate!

Being tactically one-dimensional and weak vs. the spellcasters is a valid concern, but that doesn't make any ability invented to fill the gap automatically a good idea.

Never said it did.

Also, you still have Roar, so it's tactically two-dimensional at the least.

So its already got twice the potential you say!

It implies ancestor worship, or at least ancestor-honouring. It fits dodgily with many concepts that would otherwise be well expressed by the barbarian class, as I outlined before.

You would have to go out of your way to have it fit 'dodgily'. But thats just my opinion.

They are a good idea (That's fundamentally why the TOB was popular - not because it makes mêlée characters more powerful, but because it makes them more fun).

I'm all in favour of anything that makes the game more fun.

But theres no need to be coy about the fact that ToB is a power gamers wet dream (one look at the WotC optimization boards proves that). According to WotC's market research roughly 22% of gamers are power gamers. Thus its easy to see why it has sold well.

Here's a possibility: A 'burst of effort' ability, that lets you expend a Rage/day usage to perform an incredible feat beyond your normal abilities, like shrug off a spell or leap a great distance or smash down a wall (or door). Essentially similar to rage, but more focused. It might desire more uses of rage/day though.

That sounds very cool - I like that. I am still two abilities shy of the final draft, so that could work.

I didn't mention spellcasting anywhere in the first one. Their warriors are renowned for their unstoppable berzerker rages though.

Actually thats a berserker - not a barbarian then. In 1st-edition Barbarians didn't have the Rage ability.

The second and third one being fighters means they don't get Rage or Roar, both important things for their concept (Howling dragoons, remember?). The fourth one doesn't fit Monk so well since a Monk is all about calm and self-control, whereas shounenry is about hot blood and BURNING JUSTICE. Barbarian is a much better mechanical fit - except for SAS (which I guess you could actually reflavour to some kind of duplication special move, but this is a fringe example anyway).

Sometimes adding things takes things away. In this case, it's a very strongly themed ability that takes the class away from a wealth of concepts for which it would otherwise be a good match. It's a very unusual ability that just plain doesn't fit a lot of character concepts - even a lot of traditional barbarian ones that happen not to include overtly supernatural powers.

Well, just do what Xzoltar did - don't use that particular ability and substitute something for it.

Putting it into a prestige class means that everyone who wants a more mundane barbarian can have one, and everyone who thinks it's a cool ability that they would want to have (which includes myself, I might add) can have it. Everyone wins.

The idea of playing a 'mundane' barbarian doesn't excite me that much.

You can't make that generalism about the Barbarian either - it's perfectly possible for a barbarian tribe to have a written tradition. But this is a minor point.

I think its easier to make the generalisation of barbarians than it is any other class.

They're temporarily resurrecting them - bringing them back to the material plane to fight again. It feels much more esoteric than just getting fast instead of strong.

The question then becomes is 'esoteric' necessarily a bad thing?

As for the Summon Ancestral Spirits I have been pondering whether or not to make the 'spirits' incorporeal or even ghosts.

Indeed, I also like how his revisions are provoking debate and discussion on power levels and design philosophy, which can only lead to stronger design from all parties in the future.

Absolutely. Obviously I am not putting as much time and effort into these Class revisions as I would published material for any of the books, so the debate is helpful for me in spotting things I may have missed in my haste.

I'm looking forwards to the Paladin revision - I've never been happy with the PHB version.

Monk is next, then probably Rogue and then maybe Paladin, Ranger, Bard.

A few questions for people out there concerning future revised classes:

1. Monk - Any reason why the Monk class shouldn't get Fighter BAB progression? The current build I have doesn't include it, but I am toying with the idea.

2. Rangers - Should they have spellcasting?

 

[Xzoltar]

Monk I dont think they should gain full Bab because they have son many other abilities. They also have flurry of blows that give 2 more attacks , add dual-weild and it start to become pretty tough, so if you add full bab...

Ranger I can see them without spells, but I would prefer them to retain spell, because it fit the concept of a hybrid fighter-druid what I think the ranger is. However if you come with a really good concept for ranger without spell. It may still be a good idea, if I want my hybrid then I only have to multiclass druid-ranger...

Did you see the Ultimate class made by Szatany on Wotc board ? It was really a great idea, basiclly you have core class that have so much possibilities, you dont need to have prestige class. I had made adaptation of is class for my world once, and everyone that have played those was enchanted with the result. Problem beeing each class have dozen and dozen of pages (the wizard had like 100 pages of abilities to choose from) You could take a look at what Szatany have done (since I can't show my own stuff as its not written in english)

 

[WarDragon]

Missed this earlier.

I initially had Deafening Roar at 15th, but I didn't want any supernatural roaring until epic levels.

So.... they can't scream loud enough to deafen somebody until after 20th, but.... they can bring back the souls of the dead from their eternal rest at 10th? Please tell me I'm not the only one to see the contradiction here.