No Saving Throw (from UP)

[Hand of Vecna]

From Ultimate Power:

NO SAVING THROW (+2 MODIFIER)
An effect that normally allows a saving throw does not do so with the application of this modifier. Essentially, the target is assumed to automatically fail the effect’s usual save. If applied to a staged effect, the target receives a saving throw, but the effect has its minimum possible effect (that of failing the save by 1) even if the save succeeds.
Immunity (and any other effect where a saving throw succeeds automatically) trumps this modifier; targets immune to an effect are equally immune to No Saving Throw versions of that effect.

Not many cases where I'd see this working, but there could be some. Two that pop to my mind are a D&D-style Energy Drain/Negative Levels, or certain powers built as "Super-Skills" (like Mind Reading done as uber-Sense Motive face-reading, or Mind Control as uber-Bluff "cinematic seduction").

 

[rgordona]

My immediate thoughts on this were that it would be most useful for things where the heros make a conscious choice to do something dangerous and take the consequences, (eg you can try and walk across the lava field but you are going to take a bruise every round unless you have immunity to heat, or if you chose to walk into the nullifying field; your powers will get nullified, of course you could try and switch it off first.) Basically an effect that says if you do something very silly you can't rely on good saving throws to mitigate the consequences.

However just because I can see uses for it I don't think I would ever be happy to see a PC use it, but this might just be bias, is it really that different to perception range.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I would never allow any hero-activated power that automatically worked without any sort of check at all. I might be tempted to allow No Saving Throw for something that is a touch attack (though of course you would not be allowed to apply trade-offs to increase your attack bonus on said attack beyond +10, as there is no save) for the stated price. The uber-Bluff Mind Control with no protection except immunity to Mental, nope. I'd prefer to duplicate that kind of thing with a well thought-out combination of powers with defense mechanisms (for instance, my main hero Sierra can keep up a Fascinate while she uses Subtle Emotion Control. She still can't get you to Fanatic unless you fail by a lot to her Emotion Control, but with Fascinate, you are likely to stay there and listen. However, if even one enemy makes the save against the Fascinate, they can disrupt it as usual for Fascinate, so it is still fair)

 

[Salix]

My first instinct is to vote no. Seems like something you'd only want in a GM's hands. Maybe someone will give a good reason for me to change my mind.

 

[Bront]

I can give you a good reason not to.

A 1 rank strike with this trumps toughnes (Which is an automatic make of the save I believe). Even if it doesn't, someone can use the 1 rank strike to damage an opponent till he can't make a real save, and someone else with a rank 10 can take him out.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I can give you a good reason not to.

A 1 rank strike with this trumps toughnes (Which is an automatic make of the save I believe). Even if it doesn't, someone can use the 1 rank strike to damage an opponent till he can't make a real save, and someone else with a rank 10 can take him out.

I'm guessing you can't use No-Save on a Toughness save, since Toughness saves are so dependent on how much the save failed that it would seem incongruous.

 

[Victim]

The real issue comes in with powers that have stacking effects (like Fatigue for 3 hits to KO) or nasty effects on the best failure result (non staged powers, Stun - auto daze - etc). The primary benefit of increasing ranks on most powers is increased DC, which No Save circumvents. There's often no reason to buy more than the first rank (possibly using Progression to get range/areas back to par).

 

[Hand of Vecna]

In cases of staged effects, there would be reason to buy more than one rank -- No Save means the Power has the minimum possible effect, so to get the highest effect, you'd need either high ranks (same as any No Save staged thing), or just hit the target three times.

 

[Velmont]

I don't like much that idea of no save. Just imagine using a drain power with no save extra, you could easily drain anyone. There is no stagging in that power. If you drain Con, you could easily killed anyone. In that case, I find it abusive. Maybe if I could see it in action...

 

[Hand of Vecna]

I've just submitted a sample No Save power in the RS1-Stolen University (Salix Judging) thread, so it can be seen in action.