NPCs and Levels in LEW

[Rystil Arden]

This proposal is in part a reaction to determining that a throwaway political councilor was level 18, as well as reading about the town (can't remember the name) that supposedly produces tons of Loremasters and Archmages. It seems clear that we have a decent amount of fairly-stray high-level stuff that was either created before the decision to make NPCs in LEW relatively low-level or was created later without realising that. Many of these were mentioned once by GMs who have since disappeared, rather than remaining around to help us out with incorporating the material. As a co-creator of the ENWorld cooperative Eyros setting, which also had a stated goal to keep the NPC levels generally low (though we did have a few extremely high-level NPCs in there), I've seen the temptation to make politically powerful NPCs extremely high level, but I don't think we have to do that. Let's save the high-level NPCs for those that directly act in adventures or are critically important to adventures or the setting, so that the PCs can be heroes.

So my proposal--expunge references to profileration of high level characters and alter throwaway NPCs who were given an overly high level to be more reasonable and to allow for more interesting adventures and heroics for PCs. If Fallon has a mage councilor who is level 18 (and a Grand Councilor who is more powerful ), this means that it is basically impossible to write any number of adventures where the PCs save Fallon from something truly dangerous by solving a mystery, etc, without writing out the high-level NPC in a contrived way (this is similar to trouble in the Forgotten Realms with Elminster, etc), since the NPC could have just used level 7 magic to solve the problem with almost no effort if the level 6ish PCs can do it at all.

Who's with me?

 

[Velmont]

I agree high level character should be rare.

Up to now, the highest level character I have created (I should tell reuse to be more precise) is Rilithorne, a 9th level wizard (nothing compare to Sin ).

I never been really interested by city rule by a council of too high level that it is just too ridiculous, like in FR, so a whole concil of archmagus? I would be willing to not see that... I must tell seeing Sin in your adventure just scare me and I really hope I won't free that thing out of her prison, as no one will eb abel to stop her and her children.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I agree high level character should be rare.

Up to now, the highest level character I have created (I should tell reuse to be more precise) is Rilithorne, a 9th level wizard (nothing compare to Sin ).

I never been really interested by city rule by a council of too high level that it is just too ridiculous, like in FR, so a whole concil of archmagus? I would be willing to not see that... I must tell seeing Sin in your adventure just scare me and I really hope I won't free that thing out of her prison, as no one will eb abel to stop her and her children.

See, that's exactly what I was going for with Sin--I wanted to provoke the "Oh my Gundar, she's so powerful that we can't let her out" response, and the other Aspects certainly believed it, but if the deputy councilor of Fallon is higher level than Sin, then it really makes her danger seem much less imminent

 

[Rae ArdGaoth]

I've always thought it strange that those high level NPCs in Fallon were very strange and completely against the direction that LEW seemed to be heading. I also found it rather... middle school clique that the judges got "their own special signature NPC". And it especially bothered me that Mithreander's was L18. =P

I agree, these high level NPCs must be booted off their high horses. A more specific course of action is necessary, though. Like, specifically what we'll do with each high level NPC. There are few enough that we can deal with each individually, I think.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I've always thought it strange that those high level NPCs in Fallon were very strange and completely against the direction that LEW seemed to be heading. I also found it rather... middle school clique that the judges got "their own special signature NPC". And it especially bothered me that Mithreander's was L18. =P

I agree, these high level NPCs must be booted off their high horses. A more specific course of action is necessary, though. Like, specifically what we'll do with each high level NPC. There are few enough that we can deal with each individually, I think.

I think that we only need to get rid of gratuitous high-level NPCs (like Mithreander), not all of them. Use two rules of thumb:

Rule 1) Am I using it directly in my adventure?
Rule 2) If not, is it something/someone that really has to be high level to make sense

If the answer to both of these is no, we bump them down.

Example of Rule 1 in action--Sin, to whom Rinaldo references above, is of the "Don't let her out or we're screwed" power level, an Aspect of a former Archmage and one of the greatest Wizards of the past century who blew herself up using Chronomancy. She's level 17. She's in the adventure directly.

Example of Rule 2 in action--If you have a Lich as a plot point in your adventure, there is a minimum level requirement for Lich. Thus, the NPC really does have to be that high level. But if it's a random king or noble as a plot point, they could definitely be a low-level Aristocrat born into that position.

 

[Rae ArdGaoth]

One thing that worries me about having no high level NPCs in LEW is "Don't let her out or we're screwed" enemies like Sin. From where things in the adventure are heading, it sounds like Rinaldo is planning to do exactly that: let her out. So what happens when Sin and her brood are unleashed on LEW, enslave the population of Orussus (protected by a few adventurers, the most powerful of whom is a L9 merchant, a L10 wizard focused on crafting, and a L4 bouncer), and level the Red Dragon Inn to make way for her new magical nexus which will use the petrified corpse of the Red Dragon as its arcane focus? What prevents that from happening?

I don't really feel like a ruling is necessary, just something to think about.

On Fallon, that city has had some ridiculously powerful wizards, at least in its history. They managed to stop a meteor that had enough power to drive a city 1000 feet into the earth, then they quickly organized enough permanent magic to constantly cycle water up out of the pit, keeping the city dry. Perhaps all those mages have died and all that remains is the legacy of their awesome magic. Or perhaps a better solution is for that magnitude of power to be the result of a large group of wizards working together.

 

[Rystil Arden]

One thing that worries me about having no high level NPCs in LEW is "Don't let her out or we're screwed" enemies like Sin. From where things in the adventure are heading, it sounds like Rinaldo is planning to do exactly that: let her out. So what happens when Sin and her brood are unleashed on LEW, enslave the population of Orussus (protected by a few adventurers, the most powerful of whom is a L9 merchant, a L10 wizard focused on crafting, and a L4 bouncer), and level the Red Dragon Inn to make way for her new magical nexus which will use the petrified corpse of the Red Dragon as its arcane focus? What prevents that from happening?

I don't really feel like a ruling is necessary, just something to think about.

On Fallon, that city has had some ridiculously powerful wizards, at least in its history. They managed to stop a meteor that had enough power to drive a city 1000 feet into the earth, then they quickly organized enough permanent magic to constantly cycle water up out of the pit, keeping the city dry. Perhaps all those mages have died and all that remains is the legacy of their awesome magic. Or perhaps a better solution is for that magnitude of power to be the result of a large group of wizards working together.

Well, while we hopefully won't have stray councilors who are level 18 who make her a trivial threat, Sin is not powerful enough to dominate totally unopposed even if she was the type for wanton mayhem, which she isn't. I've made other NPCs that could begin to oppose her (they're higher level than Rinaldo and team, but lower level than Sin) if they banded together with a lot of adventurers.

As for Fallon, I would also agree from the description that it seems cooler and more thematic for Fallon's meteor problems to have been handled by a gigantic Circle Magic. It doesn't seem like something complicated so much as something that was just big, and I like the idea of many people working together.

And speaking of many people working together, I have a new idea that should be really cool if it ever happens, but I'll keep it a secret project for now

 

[Bront]

I agree, and I think retconning that shouldn't be too hard.

I could go with a description that Legends tell of numerous archmages coming from Fallon, as that doesn't bely that they're all still around. Loremaster are easy enough, since that's 6th level, and not too outragous.

I don't think I've had an NPC realy show up higher than 7th level, and that was a head priest in Earling. Power, influence, and level often have little to do with each other.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I agree, and I think retconning that shouldn't be too hard.

I could go with a description that Legends tell of numerous archmages coming from Fallon, as that doesn't bely that they're all still around. Loremaster are easy enough, since that's 6th level, and not too outragous.

I don't think I've had an NPC realy show up higher than 7th level, and that was a head priest in Earling. Power, influence, and level often have little to do with each other.

No, it wasn't Fallon that had tons of Archmages and Loremasters, it was some no-name town that has never been used again. Can't remember the name.

 

[Rae ArdGaoth]

Ushad is a city ruled by mages. Is that it?