Primitive Screwhead
First Post
I have the most recent version (created 10-22-2014, 12:09AM) and the Mage/Firemage both have INT prerequisites.
O.L.D. Playtest Document: Book I - Characters (October 2014)
The latest version there is 1.39am on that day, I think. But I'll double check. My version has no INT reference, but if that version there has they should indeed be LOG.
Primitive Screwhead
First Post
Questions:
Druid, page 54. This was previously a base caster. It now has the prerequisite of MAGE III. In the flowchart you show it requiring CLERIC III.
Page 81 states that the specialized casting traditions required either Mage or Cleric. It would be clearer to add ' as specified in each tradition'. Altho I kinda like the idea of a Cleric III > FireMage
Magical Exploits:
Quick Cast is gone. Is the intent to return it or will there be a general enhancement that you can build into a spell to make it castable as a single action {or for a higher cost, as a reaction}
Game tonight and re-working the players characters, so I might have more later on!
Druid, page 54. This was previously a base caster. It now has the prerequisite of MAGE III. In the flowchart you show it requiring CLERIC III.
Page 81 states that the specialized casting traditions required either Mage or Cleric. It would be clearer to add ' as specified in each tradition'. Altho I kinda like the idea of a Cleric III > FireMage
Magical Exploits:
Quick Cast is gone. Is the intent to return it or will there be a general enhancement that you can build into a spell to make it castable as a single action {or for a higher cost, as a reaction}
Game tonight and re-working the players characters, so I might have more later on!
Primitive Screwhead
First Post
Sounds good. But.. here is some semi-filtered feedback from the group tonight.
Typo/legacy references:
- Intellect, INT, etc for LOG scattered all over.
- Page 77: Once per day you may substitute your REP attribute for another attribute in order to make an attribute check. REP is no longer a standard OLD attribute
- Magical Skills still reference spell lists and have the benefit of an increased MP Cap for that kind of spell list. I presume that magical skills will now reference secrets and grant skill dice to the casting rolls for spells that derive from that secret.
- Fey as a creature type. This is referenced in the Elf descriptions, but there isn't a Fey secret nor a creature sub-category for Fey.
Speaking of secrets. I need to better categorize them in my collection of spell paths.
Now into the meat of the problems we encountered. The re-alignment of the casting classes into the two base traditions and subsequent specializations didn't pan out well.
Base traditions granting +1 Magic and specialization granting +2. The mage power-level in OLD is comparable to a mid-level caster in 1e or 2e. Phenomenal power for a very short time. Like one encounter short time. Meanwhile the non-casters are ready to keep on going. Our Druid has almost given up on casting after gaining a MasterCraft bow and realizing he gets to attack with 9d6 and deal 6d6 damage with every shot. And if the targets are easy to hit, burn dice from attack to deal more damage. He outclasses the casters in every combat.
All that to say, more Magic isn't a bad thing.
I recommend boosting the base traditions to grant +2 Magic at each rank in order to give the casters more longevity.
The idea of having the specialized traditions grant more Magic is to give them more power within their sphere. But it also gives them more power across the board.
I recommend adding the following benefit to specialized caster traditions:
Specialized Traditions require the caster to know a specific secret, Fire for FireMage, etc... The tradition Rank I benefit in a specialized traditions is that MP costs for that secret are reduced by 2MP and you gain a +1d6 die bonus to MAGIC attribute checks when casting spells from that secret.
This gives them more power in their focused area without granting broad powers.
Mage:
The pre-req of LOG 4 is too high, making the tradition only accessible as a starting tradition only to Humans and Grand Elfs who had taken the apprentice origin. Setting it to LOG 3 makes more sense and allows for entry into the tradition through other origins.
Cleric:
With no LOG boosts and only +1 Magic, the dedicated Clerics suck at casting. They will only have a small handful of spell paths and they are forced to take one from the Good or Evil.
Recommend a pre-req of Will 3 and link spell paths learned to Will, and grant the secret of Good/Evil as a free secret.
Druid:
Due in part to the problem listed above in cleric, Druids are pretty much forced to take the same three secrets. I recommend having the pre-req for secrets be a 'or' instead of 'and', allowing more player choice
Spell paths:
We need a lot more!
That is all for tonight!
Typo/legacy references:
- Intellect, INT, etc for LOG scattered all over.
- Page 77: Once per day you may substitute your REP attribute for another attribute in order to make an attribute check. REP is no longer a standard OLD attribute
- Magical Skills still reference spell lists and have the benefit of an increased MP Cap for that kind of spell list. I presume that magical skills will now reference secrets and grant skill dice to the casting rolls for spells that derive from that secret.
- Fey as a creature type. This is referenced in the Elf descriptions, but there isn't a Fey secret nor a creature sub-category for Fey.
Speaking of secrets. I need to better categorize them in my collection of spell paths.
Now into the meat of the problems we encountered. The re-alignment of the casting classes into the two base traditions and subsequent specializations didn't pan out well.
Base traditions granting +1 Magic and specialization granting +2. The mage power-level in OLD is comparable to a mid-level caster in 1e or 2e. Phenomenal power for a very short time. Like one encounter short time. Meanwhile the non-casters are ready to keep on going. Our Druid has almost given up on casting after gaining a MasterCraft bow and realizing he gets to attack with 9d6 and deal 6d6 damage with every shot. And if the targets are easy to hit, burn dice from attack to deal more damage. He outclasses the casters in every combat.
All that to say, more Magic isn't a bad thing.
I recommend boosting the base traditions to grant +2 Magic at each rank in order to give the casters more longevity.
The idea of having the specialized traditions grant more Magic is to give them more power within their sphere. But it also gives them more power across the board.
I recommend adding the following benefit to specialized caster traditions:
Specialized Traditions require the caster to know a specific secret, Fire for FireMage, etc... The tradition Rank I benefit in a specialized traditions is that MP costs for that secret are reduced by 2MP and you gain a +1d6 die bonus to MAGIC attribute checks when casting spells from that secret.
This gives them more power in their focused area without granting broad powers.
Mage:
The pre-req of LOG 4 is too high, making the tradition only accessible as a starting tradition only to Humans and Grand Elfs who had taken the apprentice origin. Setting it to LOG 3 makes more sense and allows for entry into the tradition through other origins.
Cleric:
With no LOG boosts and only +1 Magic, the dedicated Clerics suck at casting. They will only have a small handful of spell paths and they are forced to take one from the Good or Evil.
Recommend a pre-req of Will 3 and link spell paths learned to Will, and grant the secret of Good/Evil as a free secret.
Druid:
Due in part to the problem listed above in cleric, Druids are pretty much forced to take the same three secrets. I recommend having the pre-req for secrets be a 'or' instead of 'and', allowing more player choice
Spell paths:
We need a lot more!
That is all for tonight!
GlassEye
Adventurer
I think the arcane/divine split in casting should be thrown out. Unify the casting mechanic and have all casters cast using the same attribute. Make one starter magical tradition that accommodates any magical tradition that gets built from it. This isn't to say one can't have Mages and Clerics, just the difference is fluff and tradition details and not base mechanic. I'm also not a fan of having the Cleric III requirement for Druids.
Primitive Screwhead
First Post
I say either ditch the cleric/mage divide or embrace it. By which I mean instead of worrying about figuring out an M3C3 with L5W7, have the base tradition set which attribute is used for the spell path per day limit. Then M3C3 would have up to 5 LOG spell paths per day due to having started as a mage.
Embracing it opens up the possibility of additional base caster traditions {bard with spell paths per day according to Cha, Sorcerer according to Int, Channeler according to End, etc..} which offers the casters more variety, something that the martial characters already enjoy.
However, I disagree that Cleric isn't a good base tradition for Druid and enforced the tradition construction that base traditions are generalist and 'advanced' traditions are specialized after learning a solid grounding {rank III}.
Which leads to a tradition construction guideline that super advanced traditions branch after rank III in a specialization.
The key here is to make the choice between progressing to higher ranks versus specializing {assuming the rule that once specialized you cannot return to the base tradition.
Semi-related note: Arcane Implements. definitely need these. Things like "Staff of Striking", spells cast through this staff ignore up to 5 soak from Armor and gain +1d6 to attack rolls for Evoke spells {high quality implement}. A Mastercraft version ignores more soak and grants a higher attack bonus {capped by your magical skill}
Embracing it opens up the possibility of additional base caster traditions {bard with spell paths per day according to Cha, Sorcerer according to Int, Channeler according to End, etc..} which offers the casters more variety, something that the martial characters already enjoy.
However, I disagree that Cleric isn't a good base tradition for Druid and enforced the tradition construction that base traditions are generalist and 'advanced' traditions are specialized after learning a solid grounding {rank III}.
Which leads to a tradition construction guideline that super advanced traditions branch after rank III in a specialization.
The key here is to make the choice between progressing to higher ranks versus specializing {assuming the rule that once specialized you cannot return to the base tradition.
Semi-related note: Arcane Implements. definitely need these. Things like "Staff of Striking", spells cast through this staff ignore up to 5 soak from Armor and gain +1d6 to attack rolls for Evoke spells {high quality implement}. A Mastercraft version ignores more soak and grants a higher attack bonus {capped by your magical skill}
I prefer just sticking with LOG. Much more elegant. Your way adds complication for no benefit. Just have to ensure the traditions line up.
For the tradition progression stuff, pop over to the thread about it (the one with all the flowcharts). Though nobody commented, so I just continued on and have done a bunch if work since that I'm not inclined to reverse without seeing it thoroughly tested!
For the tradition progression stuff, pop over to the thread about it (the one with all the flowcharts). Though nobody commented, so I just continued on and have done a bunch if work since that I'm not inclined to reverse without seeing it thoroughly tested!
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