Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

ad_hoc · Feb 14, 2019

Asgorath said:
JC clearly points out that unless the bonus action has timing restrictions, you can take it any time you like on your turn. Between attacks in an attack action qualifies as any time in the turn, and thus I think it's quite reasonable to take a bonus action like Misty Step or Healing Word there, as neither of those bonus actions have any timing restrictions.

This doesn't apply to bonus actions with "if X then Y" style restrictions, as JC indicates X has to be completed before you even have the bonus action Y.

So your position is that you can splice up actions?

So if you, say, cast a spell you can perform another action while you are resolving the spell? So cast Magic Missile, fire off one missile, do a bonus action, move about, then fire off the rest of the missiles?

You're making the game far too complicated.

Al'Kelhar · Feb 14, 2019

Maxperson said:
I hate bad memes. Everyone knows that storm troopers couldn't hit a dead horse.

To be fair, they do have advantage on their attack rolls.

Asgorath · Feb 14, 2019

ad_hoc said:
So your position is that you can splice up actions?

So if you, say, cast a spell you can perform another action while you are resolving the spell? So cast Magic Missile, fire off one missile, do a bonus action, move about, then fire off the rest of the missiles?

You're making the game far too complicated.

No, I never said anything like that.

First of all, all bolts from Magic Missile strike their targets at the same time.

You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously, and you can direct them to hit one creature or several.

Based on that, it's entirely reasonable to move, cast Magic Missile, do a bonus action, and then move some more. Or, rearrange those 4 things into any order you like.

The perceived complexity here are the multiple attacks from Extra Attack. Given the special rule that says you can break up your movement and move between these attacks:

Moving Between Attacks

If you take an action that includes more than one weapon attack, you can break up your movement even further by moving between those attacks. For example, a fighter who can make two attacks with the Extra Attack feature and who has a speed of 25 feet could move 10 feet, make an attack, move 15 feet, and then attack again.

then I think it's a perfectly reasonable reading of the bonus action rules that you could also do a timing-independent bonus action like Misty Step or Healing Word between attacks granted via Extra Attack. Again, the bonus action rules say you get to decide when you take a timing-independent bonus action.

You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action's timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action.

Again, the timing of Misty Step and Healing Word is not specified, and thus you can do it any time you like (including between attacks from Extra Attack).

To beat a dead horse some more, Shield Master says you get the bonus action shove after you take the Attack action. JC has also clearly said that the intent is for Shield Master's slam to be a finishing move. Folks can decide to follow that intent or not at their table. The implication there is that the "you take the Attack action" part is resolved when all attacks from Extra Attack are taken, then the Shield Master trigger procs and you now have a bonus action (based on their "if X then Y" rules). Again, you can decide that your table will allow shove-slice-slice or slice-shove-slice or slice-slice-shove or whatever you want.

No matter what, bonus actions that don't have timing specified can be taken any time you like, and I don't think that makes the game any more complex (in fact I think it simplifies things -- you just have an extra thing you can do on your turn).

Greenstone.Walker · Feb 14, 2019

Asgorath said:
No, I never said anything like that.

Same question, different spell.
Would you allow a 5th level caster to cast eldritch blast and attack with the first bolt then move then attack with the second bolt? How about casting the first bolt of eldritch blast then casting misty step then attacking with the second bolt?

It seemed cheesy to me but the more I think about it, I think I'd allow the first at my table (not the second though - I don't allow bonus actions in the middle of actions).

Asgorath · Feb 14, 2019

Greenstone.Walker said:
Same question, different spell.
Would you allow a 5th level caster to cast eldritch blast and attack with the first bolt then move then attack with the second bolt? How about casting the first bolt of eldritch blast then casting misty step then attacking with the second bolt?

It seemed cheesy to me but the more I think about it, I think I'd allow the first at my table (not the second though - I don't allow bonus actions in the middle of actions).

It's technically not RAW:

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/01/0...-then-aim-the-2nd-beam-at-a-different-target/

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/01/2...en-spells-that-allow-for-two-or-more-attacks/

But I'd work with the player to get their desired effect to happen, within reason (perhaps moving a bit first, based on the fact the first target looked near death etc). I also wouldn't allow Misy Step in between Eldritch Blast bolts, because I imagine the caster has to weave the spell until all bolts have landed, even though they each have separate attack rolls.

ad_hoc · Feb 14, 2019

Asgorath said:
then I think it's a perfectly reasonable reading of the bonus action rules that you could also do a timing-independent bonus action like Misty Step or Healing Word between attacks granted via Extra Attack. Again, the bonus action rules say you get to decide when you take a timing-independent bonus action.

Because there is one rule allowing something everything else must be allowed?

You're just making things up now. Which is fine of course, you're free to houserule whatever.

You're just making the game more complicated than designed.

Asgorath · Feb 14, 2019

ad_hoc said:
Because there is one rule allowing something everything else must be allowed?

You're just making things up now. Which is fine of course, you're free to houserule whatever.

You're just making the game more complicated than designed.

I don't follow. The rule for bonus actions is clear: you choose when to take the bonus action on your turn. JC explains in the video that you can take your bonus action at any point during your turn.

Markh3rd · Feb 14, 2019

It's the vague wording of shield master vs the specific wording of two other examples of bonus action if/then statements I don't like.

Bonus action: You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action's timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action.

Example one: Two weapon fighting: When you take the attack action and attack with a light weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand.

So take attack action, make an attack, bonus action triggers. I admit this can be read as either, "and attack" means make your first attack or "and attack with a light weapon" means you made at least one of your attacks with a light weapon, but all attacks were completed first. I read it as the first. If you made an attack with a light weapon, the bonus triggers, and then you can use it when you see fit.

Example Two: Flurry of blows: Immediately after you take the attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action. I interpret this as after you finish your attack action, immediately after you can then bonus action make two more attacks. I admit it could be read as you took the action by make an attack, similar to two weapon fighting, and could therefore bonus action flurry, but JC stated the first example was the intent.

The problem with the wording in shield master feat is that it lacks neither the words "and attack" or the words "immediately after". So it's somewhere in the middle ground and vague. Since the specific rule is bonus actions timing can occur whenever the player chooses unless specified, and it does not specify with either "and attack" or "immediately after", we have a 20+ page debate and years of confusion which even the rules designer has flip flopped on its intent.

If they would either state, "It should state AND ATTACK" or "It should state, IMMEDIATELY AFTER" then this debate would be finished. At least for me.

ad_hoc · Feb 14, 2019

Asgorath said:
I don't follow. The rule for bonus actions is clear: you choose when to take the bonus action on your turn. JC explains in the video that you can take your bonus action at any point during your turn.

He specifically talked about the Attack Action and Extra Attack and stated that you cannot do an action within an action. Being able to move is a special property that applies to the Attack Action. It doesn't allow for doing anything and everything.

You can't splice actions in the middle of other actions.

Markh3rd · Feb 14, 2019

ad_hoc said:
He specifically talked about the Attack Action and Extra Attack and stated that you cannot do an action within an action. Being able to move is a special property that applies to the Attack Action. It doesn't allow for doing anything and everything.

You can't splice actions in the middle of other actions.

One could argue that, "You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action's timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action." is also an exception to this rule, just like movement is.

Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

ad_hoc

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Al'Kelhar

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Asgorath

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Greenstone.Walker

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Asgorath

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ad_hoc

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Asgorath

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Markh3rd

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ad_hoc

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Markh3rd

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