Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

Maxperson · Feb 18, 2019

FrogReaver said:
So your belief is that to divide the attack action that must be specifically allowed in a specific beats general sort of way. Good! Then isn't the rule that a bonus action can be taken when you choose sufficient to establish a specific beats general case for bonus actions being able to divide the attack action attacks as well? If it's not then why isn't it?

No. A bonus action being taken when you want is also a general rule, not a specific one. General does not beat general. A bonus action SPECIFICALLY saying when it can be used would be an example of a specific rule.

Hussar · Feb 18, 2019

epithet said:
The rules say "You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action’s timing is specified..." which suggests that, absent other provisions, you can take your bonus action any time you please. There is no express provision allowing you to use a bonus action during your movement, but I don't see anyone suggesting that you can only break up your movement with your extra attacks.

Note, movement is not an action. There is no more Move Action in 5e, the way there was in earlier editions. Thus, movement is not discrete. You can break up movement pretty much however you want because it's not an action.

Unlike the Attack Action which very much is.

And, considering JC's quote which FrogReaver quoted:

No general rule allows you to insert a bonus action between attacks in a single action. You can interrupt a multiple-attack action with a bonus action/reaction only if the trigger of the bonus action/reaction is an attack, rather than the action.

pretty much falls in line with precisely what we've been saying, you all can disagree all you like. Doesn't change the fact that this is how the rules are being officially interpreted. THIS is how RAW is being interpreted. It's not like the interpretation is completely left field, obviously, otherwise we wouldn't be forty some pages into the discussion.

Actions are not divisible, nor can you nest actions within actions. Makes the game MUCH simpler to adjudicate and run.

Asgorath · Feb 18, 2019

FrogReaver said:
I still can't believe JC said this:

No general rule allows you to insert a bonus action between attacks in a single action. You can interrupt a multiple-attack action with a bonus action/reaction only if the trigger of the bonus action/reaction is an attack, rather than the action.

The rule JC apparently forgot about was:

You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action's timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action.

Absolutely terrible ruling from JC!

C'mon, the context of that first tweet is important. It's about 3 tweets in on a discussion specifically about Shield Master.

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/994993596989300736

Clarification about bonus actions: if a feature says you can do X as a bonus action if you do Y, you must do Y before you can do X. For Shield Master, that means the bonus action must come after the Attack action. You decide when it happens afterward that turn.

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/994997096829804549

If taking the Attack action is the condition for something else happening, you must take that action before the other thing can happen, unless the rules state otherwise. The action as a whole is the condition.

The reply from someone else:

https://twitter.com/clintzbonds/status/995022782055378944

So if I take the attack action, and am able to attack multiple times per attack action, can I bonus action between the attacks like I can with movement? Related: can I take the attack action and then use a bonus action before making any attacks that the attack action grants me?

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/995024061267767298

No general rule allows you to insert a bonus action between attacks in a single action. You can interrupt a multiple-attack action with a bonus action/reaction only if the trigger of the bonus action/reaction is an attack, rather than the action.

It's pretty clear to me that Clint was asking about the Shield Master bonus action shove here, and that Jeremy is clarifying that the trigger for the shove is the entire Attack action (i.e. all attacks) not a single weapon attack like Two-Weapon Fighting which says:

When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand.

Here, the "if X" part is "when you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand", and the "then Y" part is "you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand". This differs from Shield Master, which just says you have to take the Attack action (as a whole) before you are granted the bonus action.

That entire discussion was about bonus actions with timing restrictions, and does not (in my opinion) have anything to do with bonus actions in general. If you don't believe me, please watch the most recent Sage Advice video where JEC explains all of this in great detail.

FrogReaver · Feb 18, 2019

Maxperson said:
No. A bonus action being taken when you want is also a general rule, not a specific one. General does not beat general. A bonus action SPECIFICALLY saying when it can be used would be an example of a specific rule.

a bonus action can be taken when you choose is specific. It's a specific, explicit and broad rule that covers when bonus actions can be used. I think you are mistaking broadness for generalness. Just because a rule is broad doesn't mean it's not specific.

The only thing the rule I keep quoting doesn't do is use the words "this can be used between attacks granted by the attack action". It doesn't need to do that though because it's specific and explicit that they can be used when you choose and there's no other rule that actually states they can't be used between the attacks of the attack action.

If dividing the attack action wasn't possible at all then I'd be with you, but we have numerous examples of it being divisible. Heck, if we even had a rule stating the attacks granted by the attack action aren't divisible then I'd be with you, as at that point in time we could debate about which rule took precedence (the general vs general case you alluded to). But we don't actually have that rule. So in absence of that rule shouldn't we actually go by the rule that we have which is that you choose when to use your bonus action?

FrogReaver · Feb 18, 2019

Asgorath said:
It's pretty clear to me that Clint was asking about the Shield Master bonus action shove here, and that Jeremy is clarifying that the trigger for the shove is the entire Attack action (i.e. all attacks) not a single weapon attack like Two-Weapon Fighting which says:

Clint didn't ask about shield master, he asked about a bonus action. He may have meant to ask about shield master, I can't say. JC may have thought he was asking about shield master, that I can't say. I do know that many times on twitter followup questions are asked that are related to the original question but not exactly the same. I personally think this was one of those cases. I think because JC said something about bonus actions in relation to shield master that someone asked him in general about bonus actions. Is that an unreasonable stance?

Either way it doesn't really matter because JC's answer was so broad that it covered all bonus actions and not just shield master. He could have wrote a book about shield master and made the same statement and it still wouldn't mean those words only apply to shield master.

Asgorath · Feb 18, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Clint didn't ask about shield master, he asked about a bonus action. He may have meant to ask about shield master, I can't say. JC may have thought he was asking about shield master, that I can't say. I do know that many times on twitter followup questions are asked that are related to the original question but not exactly the same. I personally think this was one of those cases. I think because JC said something about bonus actions in relation to shield master that someone asked him in general about bonus actions. Is that an unreasonable stance?

Either way it doesn't really matter because JC's answer was so broad that it covered all bonus actions and not just shield master. He could have wrote a book about shield master and made the same statement and it still wouldn't mean those words only apply to shield master.

Okay, so there's a long Twitter thread about Shield Master where JEC makes a broader statement, or the PHB wording itself and the most recent Sage Advice video where he explicitly says that if the bonus action doesn't have specific timing built into it, you can take it at any time on your turn.

https://youtu.be/ew1dc6VBHhA?t=304

Given the large amount of confusion about all of this, I think I'll lean towards the Sage Advice segment about bonus actions and the timing thereof for the answer here. I don't think he can be any clearer in the segment above for bonus actions without timing restrictions/triggers.

FrogReaver · Feb 18, 2019

Asgorath said:
Okay, so there's a long Twitter thread about Shield Master where JEC makes a broader statement, or the PHB wording itself and the most recent Sage Advice video where he explicitly says that if the bonus action doesn't have specific timing built into it, you can take it at any time on your turn.

https://youtu.be/ew1dc6VBHhA?t=304

Given the large amount of confusion about all of this, I think I'll lean towards the Sage Advice segment about bonus actions and the timing thereof for the answer here. I don't think he can be any clearer in the segment above for bonus actions without timing restrictions/triggers.

I listened to the relevant part of the video. He was pretty adamant that you can use your bonus action when you choose on your turn. However, he didn't specify the exact situation we are discussing. So it could be more clear IMO. I'm certainly not convinced that we can conclude he misspoke on twitter based on this segment, though it does raise that as a possibility.

Asgorath · Feb 18, 2019

FrogReaver said:
I listened to the relevant part of the video. He was pretty adamant that you can use your bonus action when you choose on your turn. However, he didn't specify the exact situation we are discussing. So it could be more clear IMO. I'm certainly not convinced that we can conclude he misspoke on twitter based on this segment, though it does raise that as a possibility.

I knew I'd seen this before. Reading more of the thread, we see this:

https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/995134313841676288

My tweet below was addressing bonus actions and reactions that have triggers. A bonus action that has no trigger—such as Cunning Action and the misty step spell—can take place whenever you want on your turn (PH, 189).

So yeah, he was specifically talking about bonus actions with triggers like Shield Master and Two-Weapon Fighting when discussing the "if X then Y" timing, and what that means when X is "the Attack action". The tweet above makes it clear that bonus actions without triggers, such as Misty Step, can indeed be taken between attacks granted by Extra Attack while you're taking the Attack action.

Maxperson · Feb 18, 2019

Nevermind

Maxperson · Feb 18, 2019

FrogReaver said:
a bonus action can be taken when you choose is specific. It's a specific, explicit and broad rule that covers when bonus actions can be used. I think you are mistaking broadness for generalness. Just because a rule is broad doesn't mean it's not specific.

JC says it is a general rule, not a specific one in this ruling. "No general rule allows you to insert a bonus action between attacks in a single action. You can interrupt a multiple-attack action with a bonus action/reaction only if the trigger of the bonus action/reaction is an attack, rather than the action."

If it was a specific rule, it would specify that you can interrupt the Attack action, but it doesn't.

The only thing the rule I keep quoting doesn't do is use the words "this can be used between attacks granted by the attack action". It doesn't need to do that though because it's specific and explicit that they can be used when you choose and there's no other rule that actually states they can't be used between the attacks of the attack action.

Not so. See above. If it doesn't specifically state you can use it in the middle of the Attack action, you can't. The reason is that it is a general rule. It is telling you generally how bonus actions work. A general rule cannot create an exception for another general rule, even if it appears to. It requires a specific rule to do so.

If dividing the attack action wasn't possible at all then I'd be with you, but we have numerous examples of it being divisible.

By SPECIFIC rules man! We do indeed have multiple specific rules creating exceptions. That alone should clue you in that the general rule on bonus actions does not apply. If it did, we wouldn't have these specific rules creating all those exceptions.

Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

Hussar

Legend

Asgorath

Explorer

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

Asgorath

Explorer

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

Asgorath

Explorer

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

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