Doug McCrae
Legend
It keeps things interesting.
On the brand VS the game...
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Note to self: Create a game combining Mythos w/Anime tropes....Call of Kagome? Shuggoth in the Shell? Hasturball Z?
Philotomy Jurament
First Post
I'm a lot happier since I stepped off the edition carousel and quit worrying about D&D "the brand" (or its success/failure) at all. When I think "I want to play D&D," I know what I'm thinking of, and I don't particularly care what set of rules the current trademark owner has slapped the name on. I play what I like.
That's not to say that a new edition with many changes from the original (and what I consider the defining or de facto standard) rule-sets can't be a good game, a well designed game, or even a fun game. It's just not what I'm after when I think "I want to play D&D."
That's not to say that a new edition with many changes from the original (and what I consider the defining or de facto standard) rule-sets can't be a good game, a well designed game, or even a fun game. It's just not what I'm after when I think "I want to play D&D."
Mercurius
Legend
All of which supports the view that "D&D" is not a rules set, it is a gestalt of tropes that can be experienced via different rules sets.
One could argue that there are certain unslaughterable cows within the rules--such as HP, AC, the six ability scores, certain classes, races, etc--but even then you'd find a lot of disagreement and varying degrees of flexibility. But everyone can agree that "D&D" includes certain tropes, and that in the end, every game is different, every DM creates his or her own unique hybrid of various factors.
OD&D, BECMI, AD&D 1E and 2E, 2E rules options, 3E, 3.5E, 4E, Essentials...it is all D&D. Pathfinder is D&D. I'd be curious to hear someone say that one of those is D&D and the rest are not, and explain why.
One could argue that there are certain unslaughterable cows within the rules--such as HP, AC, the six ability scores, certain classes, races, etc--but even then you'd find a lot of disagreement and varying degrees of flexibility. But everyone can agree that "D&D" includes certain tropes, and that in the end, every game is different, every DM creates his or her own unique hybrid of various factors.
OD&D, BECMI, AD&D 1E and 2E, 2E rules options, 3E, 3.5E, 4E, Essentials...it is all D&D. Pathfinder is D&D. I'd be curious to hear someone say that one of those is D&D and the rest are not, and explain why.
Wicht
Hero
If D&D is about the tropes and not necessarily about the specific rules (which actually I'll grant) and every group of gamers uses a slightly different subset of tropes then a ruleset which allows for more tropes will appear to be Dungeons and Dragons to a broader based of gamers. As soon as the designers start deciding to get rid of certain tropes from the game, they are dissecting their fan base.
For me Dungeons and Dragons has Law vs. Chaos as a basic conflict, with Good vs. Evil being a subset of this conflict. (4e lost me with the drop of alignment among other things.)
It has dwarves, halflings, elfs, and humans fighting orcs, goblins, dragons and a host of other mythical creatures.
It has clerics, thieves (or rogues), magic users and fighters exploring old dungeons.
It has wizards who run out of spells on a daily basis and who must rememorize them every day. (And magic missile always hits.)
It has fighters who trust to a good blade over "mystical abilities."
It has 1st level adventurers who can die on the blade of a single goblin warrior if they are not careful.
Its about managing resources, using wits to overcome challenges and knowing that the more you fight, the weaker you will get.
For me, the brand is irrelevant. Sure, it's nice for nostalgia sake and I fondly remember sessions played using the Basic & Expert rulebooks and the original AD&D books. I made the shift to 2e but soon became dissatisfied with the system. I played a lot of RPGs before I returned to D&D with 3.5.
Now, it's Pathfinder, Conan, or Fantasycraft. So long as the game scratches my creative itch and lets me create adventures my players enjoy -- that's what matters, not the name/brand of the game. 4e doesn't do that for me, so I've said farewell to D&D. I never thought I'd return to D&D after dropping it in the days of 2e, so I can't honestly say I'd never look at a future edition.
If 5e builds off of 4e, however, I can rule that out.
Brand? Nah. The game & the experience (no, not XP
) it provides, is where it's at.
Now, it's Pathfinder, Conan, or Fantasycraft. So long as the game scratches my creative itch and lets me create adventures my players enjoy -- that's what matters, not the name/brand of the game. 4e doesn't do that for me, so I've said farewell to D&D. I never thought I'd return to D&D after dropping it in the days of 2e, so I can't honestly say I'd never look at a future edition.
If 5e builds off of 4e, however, I can rule that out.
Brand? Nah. The game & the experience (no, not XP
) it provides, is where it's at.I have to respectfully disagree, as when someone hears "D&D", 99% of people immediately think of a role-playing game.
- D&D the videogame, may be a form of D&D or based off its rules, but it's not D&D.
- D&D action figures may have a logo, but they're action figures, not D&D.
- Risk -- D&D Edition or Trivial Pursuit-D&D Edition aren't D&D
- D&D the Gathering collectible card game may share some of the same art but it isn't D&D
The owners have the right to lablel anyting they want D&D. That doesn't make it D&D in the hearts & minds of the fans of the RPG & their edition of choice.
In my neck of the woods, there's an amphitheater that's changed owners (or at least naming rights) probably at least a half-dozen times over the years. However, no matter what the current "brand" is, the vast majority of the local residents refer to it by the original name. The brand is irrelevant.
That's kind of the point of view for many people who didn't care for 4e - although WotC branded it D&D, it was too radical a departure. Now since it's still a RPG, I won't tell a 4e fan it isn't D&D. However, it's not a form of D&D I want to play.
Just as every GM's campaign can be viewed as "their brand" of D&D, every fan or former fan of the game can say "that's not D&D" with equal validity -- from their point of view.
Hussar
Legend
Like Mercurius, I'm a big tent kind of guy. If you can seriously say that OD&D and 3e D&D using 15 different 3pp splats is the same game, then I really can't understand how a new edition isn't.
Now, if you're in the camp that says D&D is defined by a single edition, then fine, at least that's understandable. I might disagree, but, I get where you're coming from. But, as soon as you decide that two different editions are both D&D, when different editions are very, very far apart, then obviously it's not mechanics that make something D&D.
I mean, take these quotes from Wicht:
That hasn't been true since OD&D. AD&D placed good vs evil as the central conflict. Proof - Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Forgotten Realms, Paladins, Detect Evil (not law or chaos), and a whole host of other things.
So Darksun isn't D&D? Dragonlance isn't D&D (no orcs)? Imortals Rules aren't D&D?
Meh, X isn't D&D is just another way of saying, "Your game sucks and mine is better."
Now, if you're in the camp that says D&D is defined by a single edition, then fine, at least that's understandable. I might disagree, but, I get where you're coming from. But, as soon as you decide that two different editions are both D&D, when different editions are very, very far apart, then obviously it's not mechanics that make something D&D.
I mean, take these quotes from Wicht:
That hasn't been true since OD&D. AD&D placed good vs evil as the central conflict. Proof - Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Forgotten Realms, Paladins, Detect Evil (not law or chaos), and a whole host of other things.
So Darksun isn't D&D? Dragonlance isn't D&D (no orcs)? Imortals Rules aren't D&D?
Meh, X isn't D&D is just another way of saying, "Your game sucks and mine is better."
Maybe for some, but not for me.
For me, it just means that 4Ed doesn't have enough of what I liked about previous editions of the game for it to feel like D&D for me.
Its still a decent FRPG, but it will never have that "D&D feel" to me.
Wicht
Hero
Hussar - I don't think I accussed anyone of playing wrong. I was actually agreeing that D&D was different things to different people.
I came into D&D with the Moldvay Basic set. To me, therefore, the Law vs. Chaos axis was always as important as the good vs. evil axis. I have no problem with the good vs. evil fight as I always understood it was bound up in the law vs chaos fight and heartily endorsed the nine alignment grid when I moved into AD&D. But to get rid of Law vs. Chaos just annoys me, personally.
I understand someone else, with a different background will see D&D through a different prism and, while I also have expanded my own version of Dungeons and Dragons to incorporate other, newer elements; at it's heart, Dungeons and Dragons, to me, is everything that was in that magenta box when I was 9. When you start removing those elements you move away from my own, personal, definition of D&D.
But that holds true for any player of the game. D&D is different things to different people. When you start having a rule-set that only allows for one small subset of the definition of D&D you are going to have disenfranchised players.
I came into D&D with the Moldvay Basic set. To me, therefore, the Law vs. Chaos axis was always as important as the good vs. evil axis. I have no problem with the good vs. evil fight as I always understood it was bound up in the law vs chaos fight and heartily endorsed the nine alignment grid when I moved into AD&D. But to get rid of Law vs. Chaos just annoys me, personally.
I understand someone else, with a different background will see D&D through a different prism and, while I also have expanded my own version of Dungeons and Dragons to incorporate other, newer elements; at it's heart, Dungeons and Dragons, to me, is everything that was in that magenta box when I was 9. When you start removing those elements you move away from my own, personal, definition of D&D.
But that holds true for any player of the game. D&D is different things to different people. When you start having a rule-set that only allows for one small subset of the definition of D&D you are going to have disenfranchised players.
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