D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[Minigiant]

To my mind, the iconic version of the "badass normal" "Just That Good" high-level fighter is John Wick.

Nothing he does seems supernatural, but the results are obviously that of a creature of myth and legend.

John Wick can OHKO trained assassins with office supplies.

The 5e fighter can't. It only attacks 3-5 times for 1 +STR with a pencil.

 

[Mephista]

I look forward to seeing 20 level classes for bakers, farmers and haberdashers soon.

You're being factious, but I have made subclasses for quite a number of "commoner" occupations. The maid rogue who uses "disguise kit" as fashion / sewing and has herbal kit proficiency to make teas, the druid farmer who's in tune with the land spirits.

A tailor's proficiency with needles even dovetails with a rogue's knife fantasy.

 

[Chaosmancer]

But we aren't on Earth. That's my whole point.

Because it is.

Then you are saying everyone who is mundane is limited. Which was my whole argument. If, and only if, you give up mundanity, you can have cool powers. Unless and until you do that, you will forever be chained, weak, incapable. That's the problem. Only the magical are allowed to participate.

But in a magical world... EVERYONE is magical. Literally, the plants are magical, the dogs are magical, everything in the fantasy world is suffused with magic.

See, this is the point you aren't getting about my position. If you look at the actual stats (not the lifting and pulling numbers) Your 1st level fighter is as strong as a gorilla (16 strength). They are as strong as a vampire spawn (16 strength) and by either rolling or by 4th level they can be as strong as your average master vampire (18 strength). Strahd Von Zarovich, who should be equivalent to Dracula from Castlevania has an 18 strength. And Dracula is throwing people through stone walls and casually overpowering everyone with sheer physical strength.

If I said a Vampire could punch through a steel plate, people wouldn't blink an eye. Because Vampires are supernaturally strong, stronger than humans... and yet they are also only as strong as tier 1 characters. So, why is it that my Warforged Fighter at level 10 with a 20 strength can't punch through a stone wall Kool-Aid man style? Because people insist he isn't magical?! This is a robot that can out-wrestle a vampire, and stand a decent chance in a 1v1 with a master vampire. Who can dominate scrub vampires. But he's "just mundane" because... what? His muscles aren't declared magical? He's a magical robot!

I'm not saying "oh no, human fighter you aren't magical enough to play in the sandbox" I'm saying "HEY PEOPLE! That Human Fighter is innately magical as heck! They should be able to achieve those mythical feats from legends, so lets stop pretending they are just like us earth humans and stop holding them back!"

I get that you want the heroes to be nothing special. You want them to be everymen and everywomen whose sole special property is that they have the grit and determination to step up. I just want to take that a step further. After a few adventures, as they move from level 5 towards level 11, as they go from the hero who saved a town from raiders to a hero who saved a city from a demonic invasion... they become something special. They get better than they were when they first picked up a sword. Having heart and courage is wonderful, but if that was all it took, then monsters wouldn't be a threat, because many people have heart and courage in the face of destruction.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Not less, different from. And yes, that's the general goal.

The blacksmith whose crafted weapons are artifacts despite her never casting a single spell nor using a single magical ingredient, because the edge she puts on steel exceeds the physical definition of sharpness. The singer, whose voice alone actually beguiles audiences, because music that skillful, that harmonious, compels a response--as when someone bursts out crying at a tragic melody or gasps at the sight of a sublime waterfall. The thief who can take the color of a maiden's eyes, or the name of a famous place, because they have become so skilled at stealing, they can steal immaterial things too.

My term for this is the "transmundane," just as the original term "transfinite" was used for numbers that were greater than any natural number but not absolutely infinite (meaning, they fit into the next-higher-tier of counting, above the natural numbers but below what we now call the "reals"). Likewise, the transmundane covers things greater than any mundane materials, properties, or actions, but not absolutely supernatural. The things that live in the maybe/maybe-not zone, the "no way! ...unless..." space. Which, I freely admit, some of this comes from the fact that I am fully on board for most "Rule of Cool" justifications.

And I call those things supernatural.

 

[Chaosmancer]

it might be a synonym but there is absolutely not the same subtext/tone, personally i would use 'extraordinary' as a much more natural feeling word, but like, supernatural carries to me strong implications there is an 'additional factor' in what gives them their power, it might not be magic specifically but it implies that a regular person wouldn't be able to do whatever it is they do without some kind of externally sourced facilitator, batman might be extraordinary in what he does but i don't think anyone would call his abilities supernatural.

edit: it's the difference between captain america and spiderman, cap might've had his STR, DEX & CON set at straight 20s but no amount of 'peak human potential' was ever going to give him spidey's wallcrawling or spidersense, extraordinary cap, supernatural spidey.

This is where I think positioning matters. The "additional factor" is living in a world dripping with magic. That's the X factor. So yes, a regular person FROM EARTH can't do what they do.

But a regular person from the fantasy world... already does. Your regular high elf casts magic, your regular forest gnome casts magic, your regular firbolg or fire genasi or have magical abilities, your regular shifter has the supernatural ability to bolster their body, your regular dwarf has the supernatural tremorsense, your regular halfling is supernaturally lucky.

Regular people in DnD are ALREADY supernatural and doing things no regular person FROM EARTH could possibly do. We just somehow reject that like 99% of the others, DnD Humans are also supernatural in their own ways.

 

[CreamCloud0]

But in a magical world... EVERYONE is magical. Literally, the plants are magical, the dogs are magical, everything in the fantasy world is suffused with magic.

See, this is the point you aren't getting about my position. If you look at the actual stats (not the lifting and pulling numbers) Your 1st level fighter is as strong as a gorilla (16 strength). They are as strong as a vampire spawn (16 strength) and by either rolling or by 4th level they can be as strong as your average master vampire (18 strength). Strahd Von Zarovich, who should be equivalent to Dracula from Castlevania has an 18 strength. And Dracula is throwing people through stone walls and casually overpowering everyone with sheer physical strength.

If I said a Vampire could punch through a steel plate, people wouldn't blink an eye. Because Vampires are supernaturally strong, stronger than humans... and yet they are also only as strong as tier 1 characters. So, why is it that my Warforged Fighter at level 10 with a 20 strength can't punch through a stone wall Kool-Aid man style? Because people insist he isn't magical?! This is a robot that can out-wrestle a vampire, and stand a decent chance in a 1v1 with a master vampire. Who can dominate scrub vampires. But he's "just mundane" because... what? His muscles aren't declared magical? He's a magical robot!

I'm not saying "oh no, human fighter you aren't magical enough to play in the sandbox" I'm saying "HEY PEOPLE! That Human Fighter is innately magical as heck! They should be able to achieve those mythical feats from legends, so lets stop pretending they are just like us earth humans and stop holding them back!"

I get that you want the heroes to be nothing special. You want them to be everymen and everywomen whose sole special property is that they have the grit and determination to step up. I just want to take that a step further. After a few adventures, as they move from level 5 towards level 11, as they go from the hero who saved a town from raiders to a hero who saved a city from a demonic invasion... they become something special. They get better than they were when they first picked up a sword. Having heart and courage is wonderful, but if that was all it took, then monsters wouldn't be a threat, because many people have heart and courage in the face of destruction.

agreeing with everything you said right up until that last paragraph where it started being unclear on your intentions

i don't mind the martials 'being special', in fact i want it, but i just don't want 'being special' to mean or require using magic or other supernatural empowerment to 'justify' why they can do that instead of pure strength and skill.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Bevause the books don't make those assumptions. And neither do I.

So where does it state that a Human Fighter is less capable than a Tiefling Fighter? Because if I wanted to justify "how can you coat your sword in fire" by saying "I have demonic blood that calls forth hellfire" that is.. an explanation, just like you constantly demand.

Is your point that a human fighter doesn't have that demonic blood? That's fine. They can learn a sword form that causes the same effect, which you yourself agreed is a perfectly valid explanation. So... why are we saying the books do not assume equity between the power of humans and the power of all other races in the game?

If you don't have supernatural abilities from your class, or from your heritage, you are not a supernatural character. I don't agree that every player option is supernatural; you have made that claim but haven't proven it. Many heritages are, and those PCs are supernatural, magical, or both regardless of class. But if you are not a member of a supernatural heritage, and you are not a member of a supernatural class, then you are not supernatural. I don't understand how this is confusing. It has zero to do with equal power either. I don't know where you're getting that from.

What is a non-supernatural heritage? Are Aarcrockra supernatural? Yes.
Aasimar? Yes
Elf? Yes
Autognome and Warforged? Yes
Bugbear? Yes
Centaur? Yes
Changeling? Yes
Gnome? Yes
Dhampir? Yes
Dragonborn? Yes
Dwarf? Yes
Fairy? Yes
Firbolg and Goliath? Yes
Genasi? Yes
Giff? Yes
Gith? Yes
Goblin and Hobgoblin? Yes
Orc? Yes
Halfling? Yes
Harengon? Yes
Hexblood? Yes
Kalashatar? Yes
Kenku? Yes
Kobold? Yes
Leonin and Tabaxi? Yes
Lizardfolk? Yes
Minotaur? Yes
Plasmoid? Yes
Reborn? Yes
Satyr? Yes
Shifter? Yes
Thri-Kreen? Yes
Tiefling? Yes
Triton? Yes
Vedalken? Yes
Verdan? Yes
Yuan-Ti? Yes

Human no? 1/42 ancestries are non-supernatural? 2.4% of them? Except... some of those ancestries came from humans, humans can be barbarians, monks, sorcerers, ranger, paladins, clerics, bards, wizards, artificers... so even fewer than 2% of people in DnD are non-supernatural?

What about the classes? 2/13 or 15% are the only one's not obviously supernatural... except the rogue does have Evasion which we've already discussed is a supernatural seeming ability.

So it is just the fighter? Well, not really, because the fighter has six subclasses that are explicitly supernatural as well. So only 4/10 or 40% of fighters are not outright supernatural...

So, what, the books needs to explicitly call out that the 0.062% of not explicitly supernatural things are also supernatural? When a human fighter is already capable on inhuman feats of durability and strength? Can't we just assume that the parity we know is intended (because you don't make one option weaker than ALL of the others on purpose) is there?

 

[Micah Sweet]

How many NPCs in your world are leveled in one of the PHB classes? Not "archmage" or "veteran" but "4th level fighter" or "18th level sorcerer"?

The ones where such detail is necessary. Any of them could have class levels, however, and none are capable of things a PC couldn't possibly learn (and vice versa).

 

[Chaosmancer]

I've never seen a problem with needing items, especially as levels go up. Downplaying them as 5e has was a design error from my point of view.

Because then any guard could kill a demon lord if the city's mayor is rich enough to get magical gear for them. It means your character does not matter.

 

[CreamCloud0]

This is where I think positioning matters. The "additional factor" is living in a world dripping with magic. That's the X factor. So yes, a regular person FROM EARTH can't do what they do.

But a regular person from the fantasy world... already does. Your regular high elf casts magic, your regular forest gnome casts magic, your regular firbolg or fire genasi or have magical abilities, your regular shifter has the supernatural ability to bolster their body, your regular dwarf has the supernatural tremorsense, your regular halfling is supernaturally lucky.

Regular people in DnD are ALREADY supernatural and doing things no regular person FROM EARTH could possibly do. We just somehow reject that like 99% of the others, DnD Humans are also supernatural in their own ways.

oh yeah exactly, but my point being that the fantasy human who become the fighter or the rogue aren't using anything else that literally everybody else also has the capability of in that world, so by that measure they don't have the 'additional factor' in the way that the other classes do, they don't learn to manipulate the weave, they don't have the assistance of gods, they aren't harnessing their ki the way a monk does or the primal energies like a ranger.

they do have the X factor, but the other classes use a second X factor too, to do the things they do, the fighter and rogue don't.

they might have 'something else' compared to an earth human but in their world they are just as an everyman as you or i, and an everyman in their world can just learn to fight dragons.