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ORCS or Half-Orcs?

Irda Ranger

First Post
Khuxan said:
This is a very new concept. It's not long since primitive people had their land and liberty taken by civilised people
Your point being? I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I don't play D&D so I can wallow in the mental place where wiping out the Sioux or buring a city full of "infidels" was considered a good day's work. Technological regression from guns to swords is one thing, but I see no benefit in an equal ethical/moral regression.


HeavenShallBurn said:
There's nothing morally ambiguous here at all, a hostile is a hostile, that simple. This allows you to make pretty much any group a collective 'hostile' with the same killability as your orcs. To use your example of the wandering monster encounter what questions? what worry? An enemy is an enemy, unless the GM is using the 'betraying-sneak' tactic telling the creature(s) are hostile and a threat isn't that difficult.
Arnaud-Amaury, the Abbot of Citeaux may have a job for you. Please inquire within.
 

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HeavenShallBurn

First Post
Irda Ranger said:
Arnaud-Amaury, the Abbot of Citeaux may have a job for you. Please inquire within.
Arnaud was a piker, I prefer the Assyrians they knew how to do the job properly. Course they never learned when to stop but everybody has their failings.
 

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
The Human Target said:
They could alter Goblins. Bugbears, Hobgoblins, Gnolls etc to better fit that archtype.

Or they could make up something new.

Or they could choose to leave the baseline humanoid badguy savage empty.
The way things are going, I would not be surprised to see them all described as demons. :(
 

Irda Ranger said:
Your point being? I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I don't play D&D so I can wallow in the mental place where wiping out the Sioux or buring a city full of "infidels" was considered a good day's work. Technological regression from guns to swords is one thing, but I see no benefit in an equal ethical/moral regression.

Arnaud-Amaury, the Abbot of Citeaux may have a job for you. Please inquire within.

Let's keep this civil to both our fellow posters and our long vanished and oft-misunderstood Abbots and Abbot victims.

On the plus side, Irda, have to give you some sort of point for the most bizarre Godwinning I've seen in many a year.
 
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SSquirrel

Explorer
Tquirky said:
To take your statement at face value, everyone from street urchins to washerwomen can be attacked on sight under your regimen. If an orc warrior isn't automatically a black hat by default, then he'd better be good at filling out surveys. Or ensure every party has a paladin (bets that that ability is gone?)

That ability should be gone b/c it was an awful and stupid ability and always used as a crutch by people who couldn't roleplay. If you are say, a denizen of the Abyss and PURE evil, sure you should show up w/Detect Evil. If you had a bad day at work, some guy is sleeping with your wife and yr drowning your sorrows at the tavern and pondering ways to kill the guy, even if you will never actually do that, you shouldn't turn up. Too many games, the spell is cast, they happen to catch that guy thinking bad things and BAM!

I much preferred how Arcana Unearthed/Evolved handled Alignment. There was none. No one has a simple small set of thoughts they will ALWAYS vacillate between. In a campaign with no evil, esp going w/the "points of light" concept, evil is determined by the law of the land. If the Lord of your district rules say 100 square miles and he has decreed that elves are base villains, they steal children and there is a bounty on their pointy little ears, they are evil. When you encounter them, attempting to accomplish your sworn duties or just make some money to keep the family eating, you may discover that the "evil" elves are simply poor and hated b/c the Lord's sister ran off with an elf lad when he was a boy and his father ingrained hatred of elves into him.

I am so freaking bored of games where everything is pure black and white, it doesn't interest me anymore. I think D&D can be more than it currently is and this would be one of the improvements I would like to see in a new edition. It would take 10 minutes at the start of a session to outline the territories views on certain races. Whether the characters believe the same thing at the start of the game or as things unfold is up to them and you.

For me, the story is very important and keeping everything purely black and white and having lame abilities like Detect Evil just puts false strictures on the game. Yes I can houserule things I dislike about alignment away, but that street goes both ways my friend ;)
 

Tquirky

First Post
That ability should be gone b/c it was an awful and stupid ability and always used as a crutch by people who couldn't roleplay.
I agree that it should be gone, but can't get on board with the "cannot roleplay" comment.
I much preferred how Arcana Unearthed/Evolved handled Alignment. There was none.
It's highly fashionable to dispose of alignment, and good for an offshoot looking to distinguish itself from D&D, but ultimately constitutes shortsighted design for the main game IMO.

Alignment is one of D&D's features that people continually take for granted. If I tell you that an NPC is a CE 5th level wizard, there's one heck of a lot of information contained in a very small space there. I know that designers love to overthrow this sort of stuff because it seems so inflexible, quaint and archaic, but like a spokesperson for anarchy once said - it's not enough just to destroy things, you need to have something in their place.

You could put a paragraph of information on how to play a monster, but that's too wordy to describe in the manner I've done just there. It also cuts into a whole range of spells and magic items that revolve around the concepts of good and evil, disposing of a lot of fantasy flavour. And finally, once again, D&D is a game where Good and Evil are incarnate forces with gods and (fallen) angels at their disposal - this is not sim reality.

In the Monte game, orcs (if any) have a weakened archetype, because we don't know what disposition they are without reading some description....or at least can't sum it up in one word in the stat block which carries actual weight in the game: EVIL. Archetypal strength is a big plus for D&D, adding to it's mythological resonance and the ability for it's concepts to be picked up quickly by newcomers.

A random example of D&D without alignment is OD&D's Mandrake. It was listed as Chaotic, which is generally OD&D cipher for "evil", but that didn't seem to fit in this case. I remember trying to make sense of the description - do they mean this is a goodie or a baddie, or neither? This seemed an important puzzle when reading the monster (at the time), because it sorted out the intended benign critters from the antagonists. (Note that 4E goes further down this "here's how to use this monster" path. That's useful.)

AD&D didn't beat around the bush in this manner; it cut straight to the chase. (Incidentally I think the chaos/law axis is something of a white elephant and could be pruned without much impact, except on some D&D mythology about the rod of seven parts.)
 
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The Merciful

First Post
SSquirrel said:
No one has a simple small set of thoughts they will ALWAYS vacillate between. In a campaign with no evil, esp going w/the "points of light" concept, evil is determined by the law of the land.
I have an issue with the absolute "no one" here. I see use for races that are irrevocably evil to the core in swords and magic fantasy. That doesn't mean that that should be the norm for villains. Bringing up Lord of the Rings, you have human evil caused by greed, fear and whatnot, and absolute evil from orcs and ring wraiths who are simply slaves to evil. There is dramatic power in that, I think.

As for orcs, my opinion WotC should split the race in two: "original" noble savages, and corrupted, slaves in their very essence to evil orcs. Both archtypes would get supported then.
 

Honestly:

Orcs are cool.

But what I want is an advanced Neanderthal Race.

You know something that paralleled human development into the DnD world, but decided that being essentially similarly to humans+more strength and better senses was worth other disadvantages.

I want a race that's a real competitor.

But I need it to not be Neanderthal's because I want the competition to be ongoing rather than decided.

If you can do that without Orcs than I'm good with that too.
 

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